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PCN - 12r - "Event Day" Misunderstanding
cybergambit
post Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 10:54
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Hi,

I was hoping to find out if I have a case for contesting the PCN 12r I received yesterday (and if there are any historically similar cases that I can review).

This particular situation took place in the local area of Wembley Stadium where they have Event days which restrict parking on those particular days.

I was in Wembley and went to the London Designer Outlet car park and was told that it was an Event day today by the parking attendant and that it would £20 to park. With this information, I parked my car in a resident parking bay instead using my Event Day parking permit (zone EV) which it stated as valid on the parking sign during Event days only (outside of this, it is the standard resident parking Zone W). I received a parking ticket for this and when I asked a nearby Civil Enforcement Officer, they stated that I had parked correctly with a valid displayed Event day permit, however it was not an Event day today. I explained to him that the parking attendant in the shopping centre had told me it was an Event day and he said that was not correct and that I should appeal.

What ground would I have for appeal? Here are a few points I will be adding to my letter if I contest:

1. Incorrect information from the shopping centre is why I believed it was an Event day and that my permit would allow to park.
2. It was a Sunday and so had I thought it was not an Event day, I could have parked on ANY surrounding street on a single yellow free of charge, however because I had been told it was an Event day, I believed parking restrictions applied on single yellow.
3. I have shared an image of a sign at the shopping centre car park stating it was an Event day.
4. Brent Council works with the shopping centre and it is promoted on the Brent Council website - hence I would expect that any information provided by the shopping centre would be accurate.
5. I do not live locally to this area and so have limited understanding of when it is an Event day based on signage - this is why I had to rely on information provided to me by the shopping centre.
6. In all sense, why would I park illegally knowing that I could park for free on any single yellow and also park at the LDO for £20 rather than get a fine of £65??

Any help would be great.

Thanks,
C

[attachment=64479:IMG_2019...0_WA0001.jpg]


P.S.

A side note I wanted to make is that the fine for the parking was £130 (£65 if paid in 14 days) - but checking on the legislation page for penalty charges and it says that fines should be as follows:

Grade 1, Higher Level = £60 (£30 within 14 days)
Grade 2, higher Level = £70 (£35 within 14 days)

Not sure if the £130/£65 is allowed?



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post Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 10:54
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 11:01
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The fine is correct for London

Post the PCN both sides go online and get the council photos post them and post a GSV link


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cybergambit
post Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 13:04
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 12:01) *
The fine is correct for London

Post the PCN both sides go online and get the council photos post them and post a GSV link


Hi,

Below are all the photos taken by the warden. In the following post (reached image posting limit) is the PCN and also an image taken by me of the sign outside the car park in the shopping centre.

The GSV link is: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5569802,-0....6384!8i8192

[attachment=64492:photo8.jpg]
[attachment=64493:photo9.jpg]
[attachment=64494:photo10.jpg]



Sorry, attaching the PCN but had to reduce size due to meeting post limit. Hopefully you can still read it.

[attachment=64495:PCN_front_s.jpg]
[attachment=64496:PCN_back_s.jpg]


Sign at car park - photo taken by me:

[attachment=64497:parkings..._carpark.jpg]

This post has been edited by cybergambit: Thu, 13 Jun 2019 - 10:40
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stamfordman
post Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 13:43
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That banner is misleading by using the wording event day and also a website wembleyofficialparking but I expect Brent will reject a challenge saying this is nothing to do with the stadium but only the arena. Personally I'd certainly consider taking it to adjudication.
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cybergambit
post Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 13:55
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 14:43) *
That banner is misleading by using the wording event day and also a website wembleyofficialparking but I expect Brent will reject a challenge saying this is nothing to do with the stadium but only the arena. Personally I'd certainly consider taking it to adjudication.


I agree they will contest that this is not a Brent Council sign, however they can't deny any affiliation as the LDO and Wembley Park regeneration itself is endorsed and promoted by Brent Council (with links on their actual website): https://www.brent.gov.uk/your-community/reg.../about-wembley/

Plus I know it states Arena not Stadium - but my main gripe is that the attendant (and official LDO employee) stated it was event day and that if you didn't park in this car park then you needed a permit to park on a nearby street even though it is Sunday. Therefore my understanding of what an Event day means was clouded (i.e. am I supposed to just know that Event day means Stadium only and not Arena? - I'm not local to Wembley).

I have also noticed on their website relating to Wembley Event Days, the last point is about signs: https://www.brent.gov.uk/services-for-resid...g-restrictions/

However on that street itself it did not show anything which would be able to mention when it is an actual event day (i.e. no drop down board on the existing signs saying EVENT TODAY or a put up sign location etc.) - there is a concert on Thursday this week in Wembley Stadium and so I will drop by and check what signage they use on the specific street itself which may help my case.

This post has been edited by cybergambit: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 13:59
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cybergambit
post Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 06:34
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Bump - any further advice please?
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hcandersen
post Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 07:08
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You are not local to Wembley but hold an Event Day permit?

Anyway, what we need is the Ts and Cs of your EV permit which IMO, although this is not a universal view, form as much a part of conveying the meaning of traffic signs which refer specifically to such a permit as the traffic signs itself.

And you must host photos externally and link to here - see the forum's FAQs. You've already run out of space and we've not started yet.

The discount and no-risk challenge period end on 19 Jun.
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cybergambit
post Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 08:29
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 08:08) *
You are not local to Wembley but hold an Event Day permit?

Anyway, what we need is the Ts and Cs of your EV permit which IMO, although this is not a universal view, form as much a part of conveying the meaning of traffic signs which refer specifically to such a permit as the traffic signs itself.

And you must host photos externally and link to here - see the forum's FAQs. You've already run out of space and we've not started yet.

The discount and no-risk challenge period end on 19 Jun.


Hi, thanks for your revert (apologies for posting the images directly, I knew there was something not right)

The t&c's for the parking permit are here: https://www.brent.gov.uk/media/16407035/par...ril-2017-v2.pdf

The parking permit is my parents' who live in Wembley - when I was told it was an event day by the shopping centre car park attendant, I collected the parking permit from their house and then parked on this side road under the assumption that I would be "safe".

I think the main question here is that although I did park using the permit on a day when it was not valid; the circumstances based around misinformation from the LDO shopping centre and the lack of information signage (if it says "EVENT TODAY" when there is an event, why doesn't it say "NO EVENT TODAY"???), will Brent Council empthasise with me?




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stamfordman
post Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 08:34
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QUOTE (cybergambit @ Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 09:29) *
will Brent Council empthasise with me?


Empathy is not a quality we usually associate with council parking departments.

Draft a challenge and post here first.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 08:40
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How can you use a permit which is presumably made out with their reg. no?

As your parents gave you the permit they surely asked you why you needed it or you asked them?

I can only find one reference to Wembley Stadium Event days. I can't believe that these Ts and Cs are all that relate to EV permits.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 08:41
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cybergambit
post Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 08:42
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 09:40) *
How can you use a permit which is presumably made out with their reg. no?

As your parents gave you the permit they surely asked you why you needed it or you asked them?


It is not assigned to a specific vehicle - it is a generic permit (visitor usage allowed). I went to their house, said it was an event day and so I needed the permit, they gave it to me.

This is the only webpage reference to permits on the Brent website I could find - not sure where else they would have the t&cs

https://www.brent.gov.uk/services-for-resid...arking-permits/



This post has been edited by cybergambit: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 08:45
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stamfordman
post Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 08:43
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Brent issues visitor permits, HCA. Anyway, the permit is a red hare.*

* Except OP - could you have displayed a different visitor permit for that bay?

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 08:49
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hcandersen
post Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 09:25
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According to Brent's website:

A Wembley event day permit is available to residents who live within the Wembley Stadium event day protective parking scheme (WSPPS) but outside a controlled parking zone.

It allows the permit holder to park their vehicle in a street when Wembley event day restrictions are in operation.

Residents of private roads in WSPPS are also entitled to permits to allow them to park in streets which are subject to event day restrictions during an event.

Permits are vehicle specific


Whereas an EV Visitor's Permit....

Permits are non vehicle specific

So the permit IS key.

Dad, can I borrow a permit please?

Yes, sure. Here it is.

But he gave me the wrong permit, he gave me an EV Visitor's permit when it wasn't an event day.

Would seem to cover it perhaps?
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 10:52
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See my post 5 here

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=128386&hl=


I think code 19 would fit your case and it is a lower level penalty


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hcandersen
post Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 11:32
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How does 19 apply, the permit was never valid because it was the wrong permit.

Personally, I would forget all about the store, their sign and their attendant's lack of knowledge, OP why can't you just start at your parents' and state simply that they gave you the wrong permit. These things happen, they've held permits for 100 years but despite this between you and them you ended up putting the wrong one in your windscreen. Pl exercise discretion.
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stamfordman
post Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 11:42
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 12:32) *
OP why can't you just start at your parents' and state simply that they gave you the wrong permit.


I thought we don't like OP's telling porkies...

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cybergambit
post Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 13:12
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 12:32) *
How does 19 apply, the permit was never valid because it was the wrong permit.

Personally, I would forget all about the store, their sign and their attendant's lack of knowledge, OP why can't you just start at your parents' and state simply that they gave you the wrong permit. These things happen, they've held permits for 100 years but despite this between you and them you ended up putting the wrong one in your windscreen. Pl exercise discretion.


Ok so the permit used was incorrect (i.e. it was an event day permit on a non-event day), however as it was not an event day, the permit then required to park in that bay was a resident permit - which you would only have if you are a resident in that area and a permit is required on “normal days”. My parent have a house with a driveway and so do not require or even have resident permits on that particular street (there are no parking restrictions on a non-event day, so visitors are free to park) however on event days require a permit (eg. For visitors) who need to park on the street).

As such, this is not an excuse I could use. Using the same type of example, I am looking to say something like this as the conversation:

Me: “Dad, Ive been told by the guys at LDO that its an event day”
Dad: “then you need an event day permit and can park on the street instead of in the car park, here you go...”

Will this be a strong enough reason for contesting the fine?





Just read back my post and it may be confusing as to my explanation.

What i am saying is that my parents do not own a residents parking permit as it is not required for their particular street, however they do own an event day permit as that is required on their street if it is an event day. Hence, the explanation of being given the wrong permit by my dad would not apply.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 13:32
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however on event days require a permit (eg. For visitors) who need to park on the street).


How?

And what happens when visitors come on non-event days?

They use visitor's permits.

You obtained the wrong permit from your parents - fact.

It wasn't your permit, therefore is was supplied by your parents. (cut this whichever way you like, but it applies)

They know when event days are because you've said this yourself 'however on event days require a permit (eg. For visitors) who need to park on the street). Or are you asking us to believe that visitors tell your parents??

You are not putting your parents in the firing line, you are simply extracting the basics.

But if you wish to approach it your way, then do so. Others will give you support.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 15:16
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Steve_999
post Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 14:47
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 14:32) *
. . . .
And what happens when visitors come on non-event days?


. . . . .



Post #17 = "there are no parking restrictions on a non-event day, so visitors are free to park"
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cybergambit
post Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 15:04
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 14:32) *
however on event days require a permit (eg. For visitors) who need to park on the street).


How?

And what happens when visitors come on non-event days?

They use visitor's permits.

You obtained the wrong permit from your parents - fact.

It wasn't your permit, therefore is was supplied by your parents'. (cut this whichever way you like, but it applies)

They know when event days are because you've said this yourself 'however on event days require a permit (eg. For visitors) who need to park on the street). Or are you asking us to believe that visitors tell your parents??

You are not putting your parents in the firing line, you are simply extracting the basics.

But if you wish to approach it your way, then do so. Others will give you support.


I think I have not communicated this properly. As mentioned in the edit to my original post - My parents only have an event day permit, they do not have a residents parking permit. This is because they do not require a residents parking permit on THEIR street, it is unrestricted parking for anyone (i.e. including visitors) when there is not an event at Wembley. However, their street does fall into the Event day permit zone (EV) and this is required on Event days.

Now that this is explained - my situation is summarised below:

- I was informed by the car park attendant of LDO shopping centre that it was Event day
- I therefore decided to collect the Event day permit (EV) from my parents
- I got the permit and parked on a street (to clarify, NOT THEIR STREET) which stated that EV permits required on Event days, at other times a Resident Parking permit (W) required
- I returned to my car and had a ticket stating that I did not display a Residents permit (W)
- I found and asked a nearby warden why I had received this (to clarify, he was not the one who had issued the ticket) and he said that it was not an Event day today and so I was not allowed to park there without a Resident permit (he did clarify that HAD it been an Event day, then I would have been fine to park where I did with the permit I had displayed).
- The warden also instructed me to contest based on the information provided to me by the LDO staff as, however thin the link, they do have an association with Brent Council and so the incorrect or insufficient information was given to me.

Do I have a leg to stand on? I will draft a response based on the above and share this tomorrow once I've checked what signage is on that street when there is an actual Event Day (it is Spice Girls at Wembley Stadium so there cannot be any confusion whether that is considered an Event day). I will report back with photos.







QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 14:32) *
however on event days require a permit (eg. For visitors) who need to park on the street).



They know when event days are because you've said this yourself 'however on event days require a permit (eg. For visitors) who need to park on the street). Or are you asking us to believe that visitors tell your parents??



Sorry, just to add here (which relates back to my original post when I said I'm not sure what signage would be there on the actual street where I had parked when there IS an event day) - on the specific street outside my parents house, if there is an event the signs do "flip down" to reveal another sign stating EVENT DAY in bright red. On non-event days, this sign is flipped up so that it shows a blank space. As you will see from the signs which were on the street I had parked on, there is no provision for a sign flipping down or being hidden, so that is why I am going to check tomorrow as to the street signage when there is an Event on.
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