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DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 16:45


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QUOTE (KH_ @ Fri, 19 Oct 2018 - 17:02) *
When you say three point turn do you mean an actual three point turn, with reverse gears etc. or a loop/circle?

If you just looped they'd be pretty harsh to ticket you for stopping at a give way.



Very harsh and stupid if they did.
Normally they are looking for cars that stop for no reason, often to let the kids out.
But any stopping, ie, checking phone, setting sat nav or the like would be included.
Stopping during the normal course of driving is not a contravention so even if an actual three point turn with stops between forward and reverse, doubt you will see anything from it.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1426705 · Replies: 7 · Views: 221

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 16:14


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Very fast response that will do very nicely.
Hopefully they will now sort out their signs and lines.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1426694 · Replies: 12 · Views: 307

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 11:17


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QUOTE (yen_powell @ Fri, 19 Oct 2018 - 11:55) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 23:24) *
The bollards as the entry road sweeps to the garage(?) are a good clue.

If you look at older dates on GSV you can see that the line of bollards was originally complete closing off the area to larger vehicles.

Thanks, I hadn't gone back in time.
Given that plus Land Registry showing private, this is not part of a highway and therefore footway or not, is not subject to the footway parking ban.
For that to apply, you must be on a highway, not someone's private property that is on the other side of a clear boundary line (the bollards)
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1426638 · Replies: 7 · Views: 245

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 10:20


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Post the PCN please and link to location on streetview.

Signage is present, the single yellow line.
No post signage and in London probably means you were in a Controlled Parking Zone (CPZ)
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1426617 · Replies: 7 · Views: 119

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 09:52


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Contravention did not occur.
I was parked solely for the purpose of loading.
I was engaged in moving heavy equipment from my place of business to a new location. (Address)
Equipment was (list) and I have enclosed photos of those items in their new place and a statement from ???? (name) who was helping me load.
Procedural Impropriety.
No PCN was served on the vehicle. Therefore a Notice to Owner cannot be lawfully served.
During the process of loading, a CEO did approach and we explained what we were doing.
She said OK and left without fixing a PCN to the vehicle or handing it to the driver as required.
This is also covered within the witness statement.
Please confirm cancellation of the PCN.

Get the photos, phone the council if needed. Even if only over phone, get them to confirm whether any exist and if any show a PCN on the vehicle.
Depending on answer, may need to add a little to above.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1426610 · Replies: 9 · Views: 189

DancingDad
Posted on: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 22:24


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Could we see the PCN, and your challenge and rejection before you make a decision.
It sounds as though the council considered the place to be public highway.
Depending on how they have put it, this may be a winning argument.
For you.
I for one am not convinced this is highway or any part of it.
The bollards as the entry road sweeps to the garage(?) are a good clue.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1426537 · Replies: 7 · Views: 245

DancingDad
Posted on: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 13:43


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You had already challenged and failed.
The appeal route on these is via court and that is not something we often recommend on penalties which still operate under criminal system
Often any court appearance is for failing to pay, nothing to do with original parking contravention.
Or as you have found, failing to furnish details.
Very difficult to fight and potentially very expensive
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1426342 · Replies: 16 · Views: 239

DancingDad
Posted on: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 13:15


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With respect to HCA
I accept the word lawful may be open to question but whether paid, outside of payment hours or whatever, IMO irrelevant.
There cannot be a DYL within a parking bay, any restrictions or conditions simply contradict.

The council cannot pick and choose which one to enforce, signage must be clear, these are not.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1426329 · Replies: 12 · Views: 307

DancingDad
Posted on: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 13:08


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Jeez
Phone them quick and see what (if anything) they will accept to sort it without going to court.
It has passed beyond the parking contravention and moved onto the failure to furnish driver details, a contravention in its own right and one that could see a couple of hundred quid fine and costs.
This has not necessarily stopped the parking contravention either.
For better advice on dealing with the court side, this may be better in the criminal forum section.
I've asked the mods to consider moving it.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1426326 · Replies: 16 · Views: 239

DancingDad
Posted on: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 - 10:47


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Dear Sirs
Ref PCN ????
I parked lawfully in a clearly marked parking bay.
Your CEO pictures confirm that the markings are present and clear.
I have appended my own photos to show the bay more clearly.
I accept that there is also a worn double yellow line but as a double yellow cannot coexist with a marked parking bay, assume that the yellow lines were in error and relied upon the parking bay markings.
Given this, a PCN for parking on double yellow lines cannot be sustained.
I look forward to receiving your confirmation of this and cancellation of the PCN.
Hugs and Kisses

Cannot see much more needed then that though council may argue the toss and reject.
However, there are two sets of clear markings. Two sets of markings that cannot coexist and no priority exists that means one trumps the other.
As a driver you are entitled to rely on the ones that allow you to park
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1426285 · Replies: 12 · Views: 307

DancingDad
Posted on: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 - 10:28


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Nothing to do with the keep clear signs or lines.
You drove through the centre lane of a traffic restriction instead of the left hand lane.
The contravention is not obeying a Keep Left blue arrow.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1426035 · Replies: 6 · Views: 168

DancingDad
Posted on: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 10:11


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Can't read the sign photo, too small.
Can you use an external picture hosting site (like flikr) and link it back here please.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1425687 · Replies: 3 · Views: 117

DancingDad
Posted on: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 17:02


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QUOTE (SPARKY26 @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 16:54) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 08:39) *
QUOTE (SPARKY26 @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 16:50) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 7 Oct 2018 - 15:03) *
QUOTE (Earl Purple @ Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 14:12) *
If your car has cruise control you even have the wonderful technique of using it. ………….

On crowded motorways, I find the speed limiter is a better option.
Can still use right foot to match traffic speed (it is never constant) so can maintain stopping distance but engine will not drive you over the set speed should foot get a little heavy on the gas.

I find this is rubbish keeps slowing you up when a slip road comes up with a lower speed limit even if your staying on the main road with the higher speed limit. Its very dangerous.



???
I set the limiter to the speed I want.
Lower speed limits do not affect it unless I want them to and set the limit accordingly.

the car has a camera that picks up the speed signs and adjusts to the limit.


Ah biggrin.gif
To quote a phrase, fook that.
My car has a driver that sees road signs and adjusts to the limit.
None of this new fangled tech wot don't work proper biggrin.gif
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1425449 · Replies: 38 · Views: 1,475

DancingDad
Posted on: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 12:51


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That's the problem with dates.
If they are shorter then statute dictates, easy win even with the most perverse of adjudicators.
But when extended there is the prejudice issue.

That is where the brinkmanship comes in. If you pay after day 14 but within the given dates the council should accept, if they don't, real prejudice occurred and you would win.
But if accepted, not a chance of taking it any further.

Same should apply with a challenge and see the discount reoffered even if after day 14 but before given date. But that does require an extra step in the logic which could fail at adjudication, the re-offer is specifically against the 14 days as prescribed. Remember as well, that although recommended and usual custom and practice, there is nothing prescribed on re-offer, any council that does is simply following guidance so the whole issue can get a little fuzzy.

See what others think, I am not guaranteeing a win here, just laying out options and issues.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1425359 · Replies: 5 · Views: 142

DancingDad
Posted on: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 11:52


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I think you win.
Councils have a duty to clearly sign any restrictions.
They will argue that they did by erecting the suspension sign.
Counterpoint to that is that motorists have a duty to check restrictions when they park.
It would seem that there was no sign on the normal restriction pole (did you take photos?) so any diligent motorist checking the restriction sign would find that there was no suspension and park accordingly. And lawfully.
No matter what the council may think, there is no duty on the motorist to play hide and seek, checking the whole area for any other sign that someone may have erected on a CPZ sign.
The CEO photo of the sign clearly shows it could not have been on the restriction pole outside number 8 (no hedge there) and that it could easily have been on the CPZ pole (white wall, hedge and white house)

Challenge is simple IMO.
I parked. Check the sign outside of house number 8.
There was no suspension sign mounted on that pole so I relied on the normal sign in place. (photo attached if any available)
Having found the PCN and checked CEO photos, I believe that the suspension sign relied upon was mounted on the CPZ entry sign pole.
This is inadequate to convey the suspension to myself or any other diligent motorist who checked and relied upon the normal restriction signs for the parking bay.
Please confirm cancellation of this PCN
Hugs and kisses
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1425345 · Replies: 4 · Views: 102

DancingDad
Posted on: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 11:20


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There is summat adrift with those dates.
Day one is the date of service so both given dates add three days ??

Sounds bang to rights on the contravention though mitigation may be applied (don't bank on it) if the situation is explained.
Dates should see it cancelled but adjudicators often look at if any real prejudice occurs and all council needs to say is that they would abide by those dates for that to possibly happen.
But I would include in any challenge that the statutory timings are mis-represented, that this is a step not allowed within the regulations and as such is a procedural impropriety and must cancel the PCN.

If you feel like playing brinkmanship, don't challenge, make discount payment day 15, 29th October and see if they accept. If a Notice to Owner turns up, you win.
I would say delay challenge till day 15 but the wording on the back doesn't refer to date, only date of service so would be relying on that they gave a date and you trusted it.... should end up a winner though if they do not re-offer discount.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1425338 · Replies: 5 · Views: 142

DancingDad
Posted on: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 08:56


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This is looking into Fieldview Road
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4401004,-...6384!8i8192
No footway parking signs I can see though it does seem as though custom and practice allows.
OP will need to link to exact point
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1425270 · Replies: 6 · Views: 189

DancingDad
Posted on: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 07:39


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QUOTE (SPARKY26 @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 16:50) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 7 Oct 2018 - 15:03) *
QUOTE (Earl Purple @ Thu, 4 Oct 2018 - 14:12) *
If your car has cruise control you even have the wonderful technique of using it. ………….

On crowded motorways, I find the speed limiter is a better option.
Can still use right foot to match traffic speed (it is never constant) so can maintain stopping distance but engine will not drive you over the set speed should foot get a little heavy on the gas.

I find this is rubbish keeps slowing you up when a slip road comes up with a lower speed limit even if your staying on the main road with the higher speed limit. Its very dangerous.



???
I set the limiter to the speed I want.
Lower speed limits do not affect it unless I want them to and set the limit accordingly.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1425247 · Replies: 38 · Views: 1,475

DancingDad
Posted on: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 13:47


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Any argument you have on payment comes down to did you make payment and were the signs clear enough or simply an error on your part.
But would do no harm, even if the latter to state you made payment and include a copy of the payment receipt from your phone, let them tell you that you made an error.
But your main point, add as an addition, is simply that the PCN was totally unreadable, that you even had to phone to get a PCN number before you could challenge, that you are not even sure why the PCN was served as it cannot be read and that the PCN fails to convey mandatory information so must be cancelled. Include a picture of it.
If a challenge is sent within the 14 day period, they must re-offer it, custom and practice even if not stated on the PCN.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1425095 · Replies: 15 · Views: 155

DancingDad
Posted on: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 13:15


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Phone council, give them your reg number, ask for PCN number.
Then challenge online.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1425091 · Replies: 15 · Views: 155

DancingDad
Posted on: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 12:50


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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 13:19) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 13:06) *
CP has specifically included that the service charge is set by the council.
Thinking on the above, I think that should be expanded to "set by and kept"
Even if an unsupported statement, council would need to refute.

I don't want to go there, if they do refute the argument is dead. If we leave things as they are, it won't even occur to them.
Okay
We have been discussing via PM and I can understand where you are coming from.
But still feel emphasising that this is in the control of the council would be beneficial.
Perhaps this line
QUOTE
In this instance, by imposing a 4p per minute service charge for telephone payments,
to
QUOTE
In this instance, by setting and imposing a 4p per minute service charge for telephone payments,


  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1425081 · Replies: 33 · Views: 837

DancingDad
Posted on: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 12:06


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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 12:27) *
Post 47 on in this thread.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=114780

seems adjudicators need their hands holding to guide them through sometimes



Just reading through that...this is the reasoning for rejecting
QUOTE
2p/m telephone charge
Rejected on the grounds that this was a charge levied by the telephone company and not the council. She saw it as no different to having to pay for a stamp if you used the post. I argued that the charge would be paid to the council and amounts to the same thing as the credit card charge but she asked if I knew it would be paid to the council. Since I assumed it would be and did not know for sure it was rejected.
I think it came down to the fact that the credit card charge would be on the statement as part of the PCN charge in a single transaction and therefore could not be separated from the PCN charge.


CP has specifically included that the service charge is set by the council.
Thinking on the above, I think that should be expanded to "set by and kept"
Even if an unsupported statement, council would need to refute.

  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1425061 · Replies: 33 · Views: 837

DancingDad
Posted on: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 11:10


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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 11:41) *
...….A UK national could be prosecuted for bribery under the Bribery Act 2010 once they return to the UK (as the Bribery Act has extra-territorial jurisdiction) so this is not an option.


biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

Bribery your 'onour ?
I simply paid an on the spot fine.

Had that in various countries from India (200 rupee) to USA.
At least in the latter I got a receipt smile.gif
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1425051 · Replies: 38 · Views: 1,475

DancingDad
Posted on: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 11:02


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Very nice CP.
I for one will not presume to mess with that draft.
End of day, either the adjudicator will accept the arguments or not. We haven't seen one (AFAIK) where a telephone surcharge has been tested but that draft is simple and concise, details all that an adjudicator needs and IMO, will take a perverse one to reject. I would not be surprised if they duck the issue and find on the failure to consider however. Or if the council cancels once someone with sense looks at the appeal.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1425049 · Replies: 33 · Views: 837

DancingDad
Posted on: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 10:09


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It will be two grounds.
The second assuming that you detailed Camden case within the formal challenge, giving the case references and saying High Court (generally as per CP's informal draft)?
If you did then you include a Procedural Impropriety being a failure of their duty to consider. The statement within the NOR that PATAS cases are non binding is strictly correct but ignores that HC cases are. In doing so it represents a clear case of failing to consider at best and a wilful attempt to divert at the worst.
I also assume, though you must confirm, that the waffle on the PCN service and justification is simply that, waffling about something that is not in dispute. Again an indication that they either didn't read (consider) your challenge, chose to ignore it or simply relied upon a template.

Telephone or papers? Depends on how eloquent you are?
If you are likely to sit there going Uhm, Dah and not be able to argue the case with conviction, papers will be better.
If you feel you can discuss it and not be browbeaten by adjudicator (not that TPT adjudicators usually do that), telephone.
In either case I would put up a draft of your appeal before sending, let's make sure you have the points down pat.


A term I like to use in cases like this, while you freely admit to an error in going for change and accept that errors have consequences, the council have also made an error in applying a surcharge, that error also has consequences, that they must cancel the PCN.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1425034 · Replies: 33 · Views: 837

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