£2000 of tickets - Permit expired without us knowing or being informed, Need help - have appealed but told to contact debt recovery or IAS |
£2000 of tickets - Permit expired without us knowing or being informed, Need help - have appealed but told to contact debt recovery or IAS |
Thu, 11 May 2017 - 15:32
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 60 Joined: 11 May 2017 Member No.: 91,917 |
Hi Everyone,
I’d be really grateful if someone could help with this as it’s getting really stressful – 12 tickets each at £160 and mounting. I’ve trawled through the other threads to find exact answers but I’m still unclear what to. Basically I park my car in my friend’s apartment car park (with permit displayed). My friend who owns the space is also named insured driver. Neither of us really use the car or see it that often as we both cycle or use public transport. Anyway, I needed to use the car recently but found a load of tickets on it (from private parking management company). I had no idea what they were for so I phoned up the debt collection company who eventually told me it was because my permit had expired. We had no idea this had happened because our existing permit had no expiry date written on it. Also they never wrote to him telling him they’d expired the permit or issued him with a new one. Because my place (where vehicle is registered) is a building site at the moment I’m living at a forwarding address, all the notices came through late to me so was delayed in appealing. Anyway for each of these tickets I get a separate correspondence. They’re now coming from a debt collection agency (TRACE) and now letters from solicitors Gladstone’s requesting payment (with increasing costs). I wrote to the PCN company with the letter of appeal (see below) and they wrote back saying they are unable to process my appeal as my case is with one of their external debt collection agencies and I’d need to contact them. They say I can appeal through IAS (see response letter below). My question is, what’s the best thing to do now? Should I appeal through IAS? Other options? £2000 plus seems excessive especially as they didn’t inform us or provide new permit!! Would really appreciate any help many thanks <I anonymised the letter – I’m Mr C and registered Keeper. Mr S is owner of the car space and permit and insured driver on vehicle> Dear Sir / Madam Vehicle Registration Number: XYZ Ticket References: PCM Ref Date of Issue PCN ticket Description Reason later established by calling TRACE Debt recovery PM1 07/10/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit No permit displayed PM2 05/11/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit PM3 07/11/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit PM4 12/11/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit PM5 15/11/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit PM6 19/11/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit PM7 22/11/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit PM8 03/12/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit PM9 13/12/2016 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit PM10 11/01/2017 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit PM11 17/01/2017 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit PM12 29/01/2017 Parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd Permit Displaying expired permit We are writing to appeal the above parking charges. Owing to the circumstances explained below we believe that the tickets have been unfairly issued because of administration issues of the parking management company (Parking Control Management (UK) Ltd) and other circumstances beyond our control. We can confirm that ‘Mr S’ is resident owner in the building (address of building where tickets were issued managed by PCM) and owner of the parking space occupied by the vehicle (Registration XYZ). He is fully paid-up in terms of his building service charges which include financial contribution to the management of the car park and entitlement to a valid parking permit. ‘Mr C’ is the registered owner of the vehicle and we are close friends. ‘Mr S’ is a named insured driver on the vehicle (see attached evidence). We note that all of the parking tickets except the first relate to “displaying an expired permit”. This information was only recently established (18/4/17) by contacting the debt recovery agency, TRACE as this information isn’t stated on any of the parking control notices or correspondences relating to the charges. We can truthfully inform you that we had no awareness that the permit had expired. This is owing to three administration issues caused by the parking management company as follows: 1. The permit supplied by the parking management company that was displayed in the vehicle has no expiry date written on it (see photocopy evidence of permit supplied). 2. ‘Mr S’ received no correspondence from the parking management company informing him of the expiry of the existing permit. 3. ‘Mr S’ has not been supplied with a new permit. As ‘Mr S’ pays for parking facilities through his service charge, we feel it’s reasonable to expect the parking management company to make adequate arrangements to inform him of the decision to invalidate his existing permit (given there was no expiry date on the permit) and provide him with a new one. This is something the parking management company failed to do. As a result neither of us was aware that the parking management company had invalidated the displayed permit and required us to display a new one. It is relevant to inform you that the vehicle is rarely used or viewed by either of us as we generally cycle and / or use London public transport. Because of this, there became a build-up of tickets on the vehicle without us noticing. However, we note that not all of the tickets have been recovered from the vehicle as some appear to have been removed without our knowledge (we are not in possession of these tickets). A comprehensive list of ticket numbers has subsequently been established by phoning the number on debt recovery letters received at the registered owners address, ‘Mr C’, at <registered vehicle address>. However, these letters were received late owing to the property being under renovation and the charge notices arriving delayed (and in bulk) at ‘Mr C’s forwarding address at <Mr C’s forwarding address>. Given the circumstances detailed above, I would be grateful if you could retract the charges relating to displaying an expired permit. In relation to the first charge (PM1), the permit had fallen down the dash and wasn’t displayed (as shown in the photographic evidence). This was our fault and we are happy to pay this charge however, owing to the same issues described above, we request that that the initial charge of £60 is applied as part of this appeal? Can I also ask that you supply ‘Mr S’ with a valid permit as he is still not in receipt of one and unable to use the space which has been paid for. Also, please note that the car has now been sold (as we have nowhere to park) and ‘Mr C’ is no longer the registered owner of the vehicle. I look forward to hearing from you Yours Sincerely ‘Mr S’ & ‘Mr C’ Dear Mr C Thank you for your correspondence regarding above Parking Charge Notice (PCN). We are unable to process your appeal as your case is with one of our external debt collection agencies. You will now need to contract them regarding your case, all contact details for them can be found on previous correspondence they have sent you. Debt Recovery Plus Ltd - <Telephone number> Trace Debt Recovery Uk Ltd - <Telephone number> The Independent Appeals Service (www.IAS.org) provides an Alternative Dispute Resolution scheme for disputes of this type. Debt Recovery Companies will not engage with the IAS Non-Standard Appeals Service at this stage Yours Sincerely PCM Appeals Team |
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Thu, 11 May 2017 - 15:32
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Mon, 3 Sep 2018 - 12:25
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#181
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Member Group: Members Posts: 60 Joined: 11 May 2017 Member No.: 91,917 |
Ok.. so we've had a a supplement to their witness statement….they were obviously waiting to see the lease. See below… I identified these clauses in previous messages but I think can still argue derogation from Grant…any thoughts??
To pick up ELjayjay points in last message, I’m worried that if we focus on just the lease primacy the argument that is in their supplement WS (see below) will cause the judge to dismiss this leaving us with the remaining points of dispute e.g. POFA etc. Hence I wanted to get all points covered in the skeleton SUPPLEMENTAL WITNESS STATEMENT OF xxx ____________________________________ I, xxx , OF xxx 1. I am the Employee of the Claimant Company (‘my Company’) and I am duly authorised to make this statement on its behalf. The facts and matters set out in this statement are within my own knowledge unless otherwise stated and I believe them to be true. Where I refer to information supplied by others, the source of the information is identified; facts and matters derived from other sources are true to the best of my knowledge and belief. 2. I have previously signed a Witness Statement in these proceedings dated 06 August 2018 (“my previous Witness Statement”). 3. As stated in my previous witness statement, the Defendant is liable for a parking charge relating to the parking of a vehicle on the Relevant Land in a manner so as to incur the same pursuant to the Contract (i.e. the Sign). 4. The Defendant avers he has the right to park as his lease gives him exclusive right to use his parking space. The Defendant goes on to state “My lease contains no requirement on me, or anyone I authorise, to display a permit when using my parking space” however, this id rejected. The Defendant has exhibited to his witness statement dated 30 August 2018, a copy of his lease. If may refer the Court to the following: a. Leaseholder’s Further Covenants- To Observe Regulations whereby it states at clause 4(2) “That the leaseholder and the persons deriving title under the leasehold will at all times comply with such reasonable regulations as the Landlord may make from time to time ... and such other matters as the landlord considers necessary or desirable for the purpose of securing the safety orderliness cleanliness of the building and/or the comfort or convenience of the tenants of the Building and/or Estate or the efficient or economical performance by the Landlord of its obligations under this lease”. 1 b. Landlord Covenants – clause 5(4) b – “The Landlord may add to diminish modify or alter any such service if by reason of any change of circumstances during the term such addition diminution or alteration is in the opinion of the landlord reasonably necessary or desirable in the interest of good estate management or for the benefit of the occupiers of the Building and/or Estate”. c. Landlords Power to alter the common Parts – Clause 6(4) “the Landlord shall have power at its discretion to alter or permit the alteration of the arrangement of the common parts PROVIDED THAT after such alteration the access to and amenities of the Premises are not substantially less convenient than before”. 5. In light of the above, the parking space would always be subject to any changes the Landlord decides to bring in and is able to bring in parking regulations and the Defendant is bound by them. 6. The defendant further avers 12 PCN’s have been issued to the vehicle with registration number XXX XXX however has failed to substantiate this point and in any event is irrelevant. 7. The Defendant goes onto state ”the permit supplied by the Claimant that was displayed in the vehicle (which is not accepted) had no expiry date marked on it however, with all due respect this is irrelevant as no permit was displayed, expired or otherwise when the charge was issued. Sorry…just to add to my last email 1. I can evidence in the lease that parking space does not come under the classification of the “common parts” – I can cover this in skeleton if need be. So not a problem 2. Their reference to clause 5(4) b relates Section 5(4) To Clean and Light Common Parts – so absolutely nothing to do with parking – clutching at straws.. So...This leaves me with Clause 4(2) which has always been the contentious one – as per my last email I can argue derogation of grant |
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Mon, 3 Sep 2018 - 12:52
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#182
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Member Group: Members Posts: 2,356 Joined: 30 Jun 2008 From: Landan Member No.: 20,731 |
Some random thoughts: Re 4(2), even if applicable to where the vehicle was parked, this is a provision of an agreement to which the Claimant is neither a party nor an intended beneficiary, so the Claimant cannot enforce it against the Leaseholder (same person as Defendant?). Moreover, nothing therein suggests that the Leaseholder is required to repeatedly enter into contracts of adhesion with a third party in order to exercise his/her rights granted under the lease. If that were the case, by implication, the Leaseholder would have no discretion to negotiate with the third party, and as we know, the only PPC-recognised option available to a driver who does not agree to be bound by a parking contract is to "park elsewhere".
--Churchmouse |
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Mon, 3 Sep 2018 - 21:40
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#183
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Member Group: Members Posts: 901 Joined: 1 Apr 2017 Member No.: 91,235 |
Do take note of what Churchmouse says but, in addition, take note of what follows.
You are reading, but you are not taking it in. Do you know who the Master of the Rolls is? The Master of the Rolls is the head of civil justice in England and Wales. Lord Denning's outpourings carry weight. The Claimant is spouting rubbish. Let me take and capitalise some of the words in the excerpt from your lease which reads:- 4(2) “That the leaseholder and the persons deriving title under the leasehold will at all times comply with such REASONABLE regulations as the Landlord may make from time to time ... and such other matters as the landlord considers necessary or desirable for the purpose of securing the SAFETY ORDERLINESS CLEANLINESS of the building and/or the COMFORT OR CONVENIENCE OF THE TENANTS of the Building and/or Estate or the EFFICIENT OR ECONOMICAL PERFORMANCE BY THE LANDLORD OF ITS OBLIGATIONS UNDER THIS LEASE”. What is reasonable about charging you £100 for something to which you are already entitled? What is reasonable about subjecting you to the same parking regime to which I would be subject if I were to park in your parking space? What does the parking regime have to do with safety, orderliness or cleanliness? What does the parking regime have to do with the comfort or convenience of the tenants? Does being charged £100 comfort you? Is it for your convenience? Does the landlord have an obligation under the lease relating to parking? If the landlord does have an obligation, does he have the right to charge you anything other than ground rent? What efficiencies and economies does a ticketing and charging regime help the landlord to achieve? Go through the rest of what you have quoted from the Claimant's witness statement and ask yourself similar questions about what they have to say. What they are spouting is utter rubbish. It is an attempt to justify the unjustifiable. You had a privileged position insofar as parking is concerned where you live. You had an exclusive right to park in your own parking space without having to pay parking charges. That privileged position has been snatched away from you. You are the victim of derogation from grant. It is not I telling you that. It is Lord Denning telling you that from the grave. |
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Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 09:59
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#184
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Member Group: Members Posts: 901 Joined: 1 Apr 2017 Member No.: 91,235 |
Another point about post #181 is that the Claimant has merely pointed out what the Landlord can do, not what the Landlord has actually done.
If, in Court, they assert that the Landlord has done this or the Landlord has done that, your response is "You have not provided any evidence whatsoever that the Landlord has actually prescribed any regulations. Furthermore, the Landlord has never circulated any regulations to the leaseholders. So, all you have produced is a couple of irrelevant extracts from the lease saying what the Landlord may do in certain circumstances. If you have any evidence that the Landlord has made some regulations, why have you not produced a copy of those regulations as exhibits in your bundle?" |
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Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 10:35
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#185
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,825 Joined: 16 Nov 2008 Member No.: 24,123 |
I'd ask that most of their witness statements (the content of each rather than 99/100 if you see what i mean) be struck out. It's quite clearly not witness evidence.
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Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 10:57
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#186
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
Indeed, that entire addendum is making an argument
Not a statemnt of facts. |
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Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 11:09
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#187
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Member Group: Members Posts: 60 Joined: 11 May 2017 Member No.: 91,917 |
Thanks All
I'll see if I can get it struck out based on this. what do I do phone the court?? I'm also going to re-write the skeleton with a focus on Derogation from Grant. I don't want to re-hash all the details about the contract primacy again as this was covered pretty well in the Witness Statement...it's just going to appear very repetitive and annoying to anyone reading it I feel. I'm wondering if it's worth asking for their witness to attend in Court...I guess we would have to pay for their time if we lose. Also it's clearly a solicitor .. so would mean being up against two solicitors in court. Not sure...any thoughts?? Its getting to the stage now where it's very obvious the claimant is being blatantly and deliberately deceitful - won't a judge pick up on this? I'm honestly amazed this allowed to go on! - I mean, using a clause in the lease which is clearly relating to lighting and cleaning to argue your case around parking - surely this is taking the *@!**!! |
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Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 11:18
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#188
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
Write into the court and have your objection to this late WS being accepted put on file for the reasons...
Your skellie is a BYULLET POINT SUMMARY of your ENTIRE defence. In order best to worst. SO you are of course being repetetive, as youve made the argument already, however you are NOT writing a long winded argument, just some bullet points. ONE page A4 is about ideal. Total. I wouldnt ask them to appear. WHEN they DONT appear, ask why the WS is being accepted AGAIN as their witness cannot be cross examined. It is ast best hearsay and nothing more. They are using anything they can manage to persuade. Standard tactics. You just need to point out how laughable this is. |
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Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 11:32
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#189
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,825 Joined: 16 Nov 2008 Member No.: 24,123 |
Thanks All I'll see if I can get it struck out based on this. what do I do phone the court?? I'm also going to re-write the skeleton with a focus on Derogation from Grant. I don't want to re-hash all the details about the contract primacy again as this was covered pretty well in the Witness Statement...it's just going to appear very repetitive and annoying to anyone reading it I feel. I'm wondering if it's worth asking for their witness to attend in Court...I guess we would have to pay for their time if we lose. Also it's clearly a solicitor .. so would mean being up against two solicitors in court. Not sure...any thoughts?? Its getting to the stage now where it's very obvious the claimant is being blatantly and deliberately deceitful - won't a judge pick up on this? I'm honestly amazed this allowed to go on! - I mean, using a clause in the lease which is clearly relating to lighting and cleaning to argue your case around parking - surely this is taking the *@!**!! Well the court have it and the date is near (?) so i'd just bring it up as a preliminary point to the judge. They may already be on it, they may not have looked and agree once you bring it up or they may not care since it's the small claims. |
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Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 10:27
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#190
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Member Group: Members Posts: 60 Joined: 11 May 2017 Member No.: 91,917 |
Hi All
Quick update...i'm still working on skeleton argument...i'm really struggling with time at the minute though.. Does anyone know what the dealine for this woudl be if the hearing is on 17th September Also just had this from the claimant....they will not be attending in court - is this normal procedure?: We act for the Claimant. In accordance with CPR 27.9 our Client hereby gives notice that it will not be attending the hearing on 17/09/2018. Please note, our Client is unable to attend the above mentioned hearing and we have kindly requested that their attendance be excused and the hearing conducted in their absence pursuant to CPR 27.9. We confirm the court has been informed and that we have asked the Court to decide the claim in our Client's absence based on the evidence submitted. Regards, |
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Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 10:38
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#191
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,124 Joined: 8 Feb 2013 Member No.: 59,842 |
SA usually submitted (to all parties) around 3 days prior. But having a formal SA is not a requirement (unlike your Defence or WS). You could just have a note pad with a shorthand list of points you wish to deal with at the hearing. But if you do submit a written SA, then the Judge knows what you wish to raise and the Claimant (representative) knows what they might need to answer.
G's notifying that their client won't be attending happens in almost all of their cases (God forbid that a PPC should expose themselves directly in front of a Judge), but they could well field a hired gun solicitor/legal rep to front their case at the hearing. Don't be surprised if one of those rocks up. Edit to add: QUOTE We confirm the court has been informed and that we have asked the Court to decide the claim in our Client's absence based on the evidence submitted. Don't rely on this, but to me, that may be starting to look like a hint at an impending discontinuation. This post has been edited by Umkomaas: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 10:41 |
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Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 10:43
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#192
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Member Group: Members Posts: 41,503 Joined: 25 Aug 2011 From: Planet Earth Member No.: 49,223 |
For such a significant claim I'm surprised no one is going to rock up. It probably shows how confident they feel about the result and is not worth investing in attendance.
Attend, act surprised that they've sent no one to challenge the statements in person. Have a costs schedule to hand. QUOTE We confirm the court has been informed and that we have asked the Court to decide the claim in our Client's absence based on the evidence submitted. Don't rely on this, but to me, that may be starting to look like a hint at an impending discontinuation. Yes, quite possible... -------------------- RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it. |
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Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 10:47
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#193
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Member Group: Members Posts: 60 Joined: 11 May 2017 Member No.: 91,917 |
great, thanks.... this is for 1 of the 12 tickets. FYI - I'm still at LBCC stage with my 11. So this is for a small amount.
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Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 12:23
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#194
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
They are seeing if they can get a result in their favour then will continue with the 11.
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Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 19:18
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#195
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Member Group: Members Posts: 901 Joined: 1 Apr 2017 Member No.: 91,235 |
I think you are in a state of panic when you have no need to be.
Over 90 posts ago, I mentioned to you that:- "When it comes to residential cases, however, the crux of the matter is that the leaseholder has rights and the parking company has none whatsoever. Your lease grants you the right to park in your parking space. Your lease does not grant the parking company to use your parking space for its business purposes. Moreover, once the parking rights were granted to you by the lease, no-one can grant those rights or even a share of them to anyone else." In post #180, I provided you with a statement of legal arguments based on your rights as a leaseholder. That, together with you defence and your witness statement, should be enough to get the claim dismissed. If it does not achieve that aim, it will not be because there is anything wrong with the arguments, it will simply be because you have become a loser in the judge lottery. In those circumstances, you appeal the judgement. You do not need a different statement of legal arguments. You just need to keep a cool head and really get to grips with what I have written. |
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Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 19:46
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#196
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Member Group: Members Posts: 60 Joined: 11 May 2017 Member No.: 91,917 |
...definitely not in a state of panic. My own job is a bit crazy at the minute and could do without having to deal with the likes of these scumbags...
I worked out their little strategy ages ago to separate out one ticket and go after my friend hoping he'd bottle it.., hence i'm doing all the work for him. I will also be going to court with him next week as a McKenzie friend to argue the case! so...I'm going to get my cost schedule together...Quick question.. is this ok to submit on the day with the judge? Can anyone recommend a good thread with a comprehensive cost schedule on I can copy? thanks again to all those helping!! |
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Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 20:27
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#197
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,124 Joined: 8 Feb 2013 Member No.: 59,842 |
QUOTE I will also be going to court with him next week as a McKenzie friend to argue the case! so...I'm going to get my cost schedule together...Quick question.. is this ok to submit on the day with the judge? I don't purport to be the absolute authority on this (IANAL), but a McKenzie Friend cannot argue anyone's case. A MF can pass papers and 'whisper in the ear' of the Defendant. A 'Lay Representative' has more options to speak for the Defendant. Check them out on Google. QUOTE Can anyone recommend a good thread with a comprehensive cost schedule on I can copy? Again, not the World's authority on this, but in the small claims court a MF or LR is entitled to zilch in terms of costs. This post has been edited by Umkomaas: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 20:28 |
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Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 20:48
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#198
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Member Group: Members Posts: 60 Joined: 11 May 2017 Member No.: 91,917 |
yes...I looked at this. My understanding is that this can vary depending on the court. I'm also a witness in relation to pretty much the whole case so I'm hoping i will be allowed to speak directly to the court. Failing that, my friend is fully briefed now... having read and signed the submitted docs, he does pretty much get everything now..Where it gets a bit complicated I think an odd wisper or scribble on paper will be enough. Fingers crossed
By cost schedule, I meant one for submission on behalf of my friend (he will submit not me)...be grateful if anyone could advise.. thanks |
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Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 21:07
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#199
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Member Group: Members Posts: 901 Joined: 1 Apr 2017 Member No.: 91,235 |
Did the Defendant declare a witness on the Directions Questionnaire?
Have you completed a witness statement? |
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Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 22:04
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#200
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
Unless you are claiming extra for unreasonable behaviour then ask the judge for costs when you win. Travel, parking and loss of wages capped at £95. Be prepared to show a wage slip for salary.
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