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NIP receivied
john1234567
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 11:11
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Hi all.

Got flagged down by a hidden policewoman with a radar gun on the weekend. She gave me the NIP and told me what would happen.

Just wondered, looking at the piece of paper, it has had a large bit of the corner torn off so bits of the text are missing where she tore it off her pad.

It's also badly filled in with a lot of the letters and numbers looking confusing and not entirely legible.

Is there any mileage from the point of view of exonerating myself in a badly completed, illegible and damaged NIP? Is there any standard for that?
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post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 11:11
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Logician
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 11:29
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No. There is no requirement to give you any paper at all. All that is required is that she warned you that you might be prosecuted, or a NIP is later sent out. You may receive a NIP in the post, just to make sure, some forces do, some do not.


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Jlc
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 11:31
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What was the alleged speed/limit?


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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john1234567
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 11:57
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60/76

QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 15 May 2019 - 12:29) *
No. There is no requirement to give you any paper at all. All that is required is that she warned you that you might be prosecuted, or a NIP is later sent out. You may receive a NIP in the post, just to make sure, some forces do, some do not.


So assuming I get only one NIP at the roadside... what would be the next thing which will happen? Presumably something turns up in the post. Is it due within 14 days or does that time constraint only apply to the NIP?
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Jlc
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 12:11
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You should have had a 'verbal' NIP - basically what the offence was and they were going to pursue it. (The 14 days only apply to a postal NIP if no verbal one is given)

That excess will see a fixed penalty offer of 3 points £100.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 15 May 2019 - 12:12


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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john1234567
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 12:13
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 15 May 2019 - 13:11) *
You should have had a 'verbal' NIP - basically what the offence was and they were going to pursue it. (The 14 days only apply to a postal NIP if no verbal one is given)

That excess will see a fixed penalty offer of 3 points £100.


So they didn't have to give me the slip at the roadside and telling me was sufficient?

What about the 14 days thing? I saw David Beckham got off his speeding ticket for late paperwork... sometimes that happens?
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I am Weasel
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 12:23
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QUOTE (john1234567 @ Wed, 15 May 2019 - 13:13) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 15 May 2019 - 13:11) *
You should have had a 'verbal' NIP - basically what the offence was and they were going to pursue it. (The 14 days only apply to a postal NIP if no verbal one is given)

That excess will see a fixed penalty offer of 3 points £100.


So they didn't have to give me the slip at the roadside and telling me was sufficient?

What about the 14 days thing? I saw David Beckham got off his speeding ticket for late paperwork... sometimes that happens?

The 14 day limit applies only to a postal NIP - you received a verbal NIP at the roadside. They have 6 months to commence court proceedings, but at that speed, I would expect to hear very soon from them offering you a fixed penalty of 3 points and £100.
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john1234567
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 12:47
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I've seen some advice elsewhere on el'webbo stating that you should always elect to go to court so you can ask for the evidence. The theory being that in a large number of cases the routine high volume nature of the speeding ticket racket leads to a lot of mistakes in the evidence gathering and handling. Which has the potential to give a lot of additional opportunities to wiggle free.

In this case what I had done was perfectly safe but the ticket was being issued on the standard safety grounds nevertheless. On that day we had perfect visibility, perfect road conditions, no vehicle defects and a very straight and wide road with light traffic in a rural area. I had momentarily exceeded the limit for overtaking some slower traffic.

In this case I don't feel like it's particularly deserved so see no moral issue in attempting to overturn it.
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southpaw82
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 12:49
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QUOTE (john1234567 @ Wed, 15 May 2019 - 13:13) *
So they didn't have to give me the slip at the roadside


No.

QUOTE
and telling me was sufficient?


Yes.

QUOTE
What about the 14 days thing?

What about it? You were warned immediately after committing the offence.


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NewJudge
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 13:30
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QUOTE (john1234567 @ Wed, 15 May 2019 - 13:47) *
I've seen some advice elsewhere on el'webbo stating that you should always elect to go to court so you can ask for the evidence. The theory being that in a large number of cases the routine high volume nature of the speeding ticket racket leads to a lot of mistakes in the evidence gathering and handling. Which has the potential to give a lot of additional opportunities to wiggle free.

In this case what I had done was perfectly safe but the ticket was being issued on the standard safety grounds nevertheless. On that day we had perfect visibility, perfect road conditions, no vehicle defects and a very straight and wide road with light traffic in a rural area. I had momentarily exceeded the limit for overtaking some slower traffic.

In this case I don't feel like it's particularly deserved so see no moral issue in attempting to overturn it.

The conditions on the road and of the vehicle are irrelevant. Nobody is alleging what you did was not safe (though that could be an interesting argument). All that's alleged is that you exceeded the speed limit. If you are confident you can expose "some mistakes in evidence gathering and handling" and you fancy a day out to argue along the lines you suggest that's your privilege. But make sure you save up some cash in the meantime. At the moment it looks like it will cost you £100 and three points. If you fail in court (which looks all but inevitable based on what you have said here) you can kiss goodbye to the thick end of £1k (assuming no "expert witnesses" have to be called by the prosecution to counter your arguments, when you may be asked to pay extra for their time).
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john1234567
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 13:47
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Wed, 15 May 2019 - 14:30) *
QUOTE (john1234567 @ Wed, 15 May 2019 - 13:47) *
I've seen some advice elsewhere on el'webbo stating that you should always elect to go to court so you can ask for the evidence. The theory being that in a large number of cases the routine high volume nature of the speeding ticket racket leads to a lot of mistakes in the evidence gathering and handling. Which has the potential to give a lot of additional opportunities to wiggle free.

In this case what I had done was perfectly safe but the ticket was being issued on the standard safety grounds nevertheless. On that day we had perfect visibility, perfect road conditions, no vehicle defects and a very straight and wide road with light traffic in a rural area. I had momentarily exceeded the limit for overtaking some slower traffic.

In this case I don't feel like it's particularly deserved so see no moral issue in attempting to overturn it.

The conditions on the road and of the vehicle are irrelevant. Nobody is alleging what you did was not safe (though that could be an interesting argument). All that's alleged is that you exceeded the speed limit. If you are confident you can expose "some mistakes in evidence gathering and handling" and you fancy a day out to argue along the lines you suggest that's your privilege. But make sure you save up some cash in the meantime. At the moment it looks like it will cost you £100 and three points. If you fail in court (which looks all but inevitable based on what you have said here) you can kiss goodbye to the thick end of £1k (assuming no "expert witnesses" have to be called by the prosecution to counter your arguments, when you may be asked to pay extra for their time).


Ah, no... the officer did say she was issuing the ticket on the grounds of safety for the greater good... and all of that. I'm not expecting to use any of that in any official sense, just justifying to myself that by looking for ways around it I am not trying to get away with driving unsafely.

Another question I wondered about was where they will conduct proceedings if I elected to take it to court. The offence occurred a long way from home. Would they want me to travel to a court at the other end of the country or my nearest one? Surely some issue of fairness comes in to play there. If justice cannot be accessed due to the logistics of attending a court at the other end of the country then that's justice denied?
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NewJudge
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 14:33
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QUOTE (john1234567 @ Wed, 15 May 2019 - 14:47) *
Another question I wondered about was where they will conduct proceedings if I elected to take it to court. The offence occurred a long way from home. Would they want me to travel to a court at the other end of the country or my nearest one? Surely some issue of fairness comes in to play there. If justice cannot be accessed due to the logistics of attending a court at the other end of the country then that's justice denied?

If you intend contesting the charge the prosecution will almost certainly argue to have the matter heard where the offence occurred. Depending on your defence you may require witnesses to attend. In your case the police officer (and any others whose evidence you wish to be heard in person) will be expected to travel to you and it doesn't usually work like that.

If you intend to plead guilty (a course of action for which there is absolutely no point as the Fixed Penalty is by far the best offer you will get) you could ask for it to be transferred to your nearest court.
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Logician
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 14:43
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QUOTE (john1234567 @ Wed, 15 May 2019 - 13:47) *
Ah, no... the officer did say she was issuing the ticket on the grounds of safety for the greater good... and all of that. I'm not expecting to use any of that in any official sense, just justifying to myself that by looking for ways around it I am not trying to get away with driving unsafely. Another question I wondered about was where they will conduct proceedings if I elected to take it to court. The offence occurred a long way from home. Would they want me to travel to a court at the other end of the country or my nearest one? Surely some issue of fairness comes in to play there. If justice cannot be accessed due to the logistics of attending a court at the other end of the country then that's justice denied?


That was a rather absurd thing for the officer to say, the offence is exceeding the limit, whether or not it was safe to do so is quite irrelevant.

If you reject the fixed penalty, and opt for a full court hearing, the case will be heard at a court dealing with traffic matters for the area concerned. In exceptional circumstances cases may be transferred to another area, but not just for the convenience of the alleged offender, and a local hearing is usually better for any witnesses.

The advice to always opt for a trial is quite fantastically bad unless you actually have some viable defence. Things sometimes do go wrong with a prosecution but going to court hoping for that is rather like running up large debts in the hope that a lottery win will take care of repaying them. The penalties imposed by a court will always be higher than a fixed penalty and sometimes much higher. In your case, if you are found guilty after pleading not guilty, the fine would be 50% of your net weekly income, plus a surcharge of 10% (minimum £30), plus costs with a guideline of £620, but the points would still be the same at 3.



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southpaw82
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 15:08
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The advice to take it to court in the hope that the prosecution may drop the ball is ok in run of the mill cases but a traffic offence is usually so ridiculously easy to prove that there are very few balls to drop. Most “cracked” cases go that way because witnesses don’t turn up - police officers usually attend court when warned to do so.


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john1234567
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 15:16
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I was reading a lot of the 'success stories' at the top of the forum and a lot of them talk about succeeding by 'timing out' the 6 month period in which you would have to go to court or accept the fixed penalty.

So being a bit green to the area of speeding I'm still not sure what happens next? I've been verbally nipped at the roadside and given a slip. What happens next. Will they send me a form giving me a chance to appeal?

Maybe I phrased it wrongly when I mentioned going to court. I said that on the basis that it's either / or. i.e. if you don't take the fixed penalty then it's certainly court. What I meant to say was that the advice said to ask for the evidence they have against you. This advice is given as for the reasons stated above... that mistakes are common and why would you ever agree to be sanctioned without seeing what evidence they have for doing so?
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Jlc
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 15:50
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They will send a fixed penalty. You either accept this or not - there will be no 'evidence' provided. The fixed penalty system is for those that accept the allegation and want to dispose of the matter without a prosecution.

You have a right to a trial and the evidence they will aver. But that £100 will be long gone. If you fight a contested trial then as already noted a bill of around £1k+ is possible. Of course they might 'mess up' but it's a small chance.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 16:02
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You won’t get a chance to appeal yet as there is as yet no decision to appeal.

The processing office will send you one of three things
1/ An offer of a course
2/ A conditional offer of a fixed penalty
3/ A letter telling you it is going to court OR the court ‘summons’ (Single Justice Procedure Notice)

If you don’t accept 1 or 2 you’ll get the SJPN.

Some cases time out, but that’s because it’s well into the six months by the time they make contact with the driver, as they knew who the driver was within minutes there is next to no chance that will happen for you.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Wed, 15 May 2019 - 16:02


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john1234567
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 16:03
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Something I've noticed about the location is that it has no speed limit signs but there are a couple of street lamps.

https://goo.gl/maps/8ZxFmm33DmmyWZuA6

I was travelling north-east. The nice police lady was hiding behind the wall next to the bus stop.
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666
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 16:12
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QUOTE (john1234567 @ Wed, 15 May 2019 - 17:03) *
Something I've noticed about the location is that it has no speed limit signs but there are a couple of street lamps.

https://goo.gl/maps/8ZxFmm33DmmyWZuA6

I was travelling north-east. The nice police lady was hiding behind the wall next to the bus stop.


No signs are needed: the national speed limit (60) applies.

AIUI a couple of lamps don't constitute a "system" of lighting. If they did, the default limit would be 30, which doesn't help you!
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john1234567
post Thu, 16 May 2019 - 06:35
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It would help if the alleged offence was a breach of a 60mph limit. The paperwork would be incorrect and all the previous penalties issued to other motorists would have to be overturned.

I've been thinking overnight about the business of acquiring the evidence they have for issuing the fixed penalty. I'm thinking it must be possible to see it. For other similar situations like bus lane fines or parking fines the evidence is often sent together with the PCN. So isn't it the same for speeding? Wouldn't they explain the basis for their action and then give you the option to appeal it?

On the issue of the speed detection device in play here. I believe it was a ProLaser III. The Home Office guidelines for use of that device explains that it can't reliably target a brace of moving vehicles, as in this case. I was targeted during overtaking. So it must be beyond reasonable doubt that the gun wasn't reflecting off one of the other moving vehicles. If the gun is pointed straight at one moving vehicle it is reliable, but if there are two vehicles side-by-side it's less clear cut.

This post has been edited by john1234567: Thu, 16 May 2019 - 06:38
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