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H Bar End of Cul-de-Sac PCN ISSUED, Is this a grey area?
Pee_Dee
post Fri, 5 Oct 2018 - 12:17
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Hi,

I was issued a PCN for a Code 27 contravention BLOCKING ACCESS TO DRIVEWAY. This occurred outside my house.

I’m after some advice as to the validity of this due to the unusual road layout of the street where I live .

In the images you will see that the neighbour has a H Bar painted covering the length of his driveway opening.

However, the is placed along the very end of the street perpendicular to the direction of the street. Usually, H Bars are placed in the middle of a straight run of road, not at a right angle to an adjoining property.

When my car is parked outside of my house it is unavoidable to not be partially in front of his driveway. There physically is no more road to move along to.

Moreover, he has sufficient access for his vehicle. Unfortunately he simply doesn’t like that my car is, unavoidably, partway in front of his gates. This is why he called the Civil Enforcement Officer to issue the PCN.

The neighbour is insisting that I completely avoid the space where my car currently is parked. I argue this is unreasonable.

I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on this unusual road layout. Should the H Bar have been painted all the way to the kerb? Does his driveway count as a dropped kerb legal access point or is it simply the end of the cul de sac? No kerb has actually ever existed to have been dropped.

Any thoughts and advice appreciated on how I can challenge this PCN. Blackpool Borough Council btw. Thank you.

This post has been edited by Pee_Dee: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 - 12:22
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post Fri, 5 Oct 2018 - 12:17
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peterguk
post Sat, 6 Oct 2018 - 21:03
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QUOTE (Pee_Dee @ Sat, 6 Oct 2018 - 21:02) *
Thank you. Pardon my ignorance but what is the post by HCN?


I think you meant to type HCA. not HCN. If so, HCA refers to hcanderson, a poster above. Look for his post above.


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hcandersen
post Sat, 6 Oct 2018 - 21:28
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In simple parlance:

There isn't a contravention as stated in the PCN, therefore
There cannot be a corresponding penalty for a non-existent contravention.

The kerb stones continue across the face of their property and I suspect they'll rely on this?

You should challenge at least on the basis that you've referred to the legal references in the PCN and have been unable to find any contravention in the Penalty Charges Guidelines regs which corresponds to the one given in the PCN etc.
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cp8759
post Sat, 6 Oct 2018 - 23:14
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 6 Oct 2018 - 22:28) *
In simple parlance:

There isn't a contravention as stated in the PCN, therefore
There cannot be a corresponding penalty for a non-existent contravention.

The kerb stones continue across the face of their property and I suspect they'll rely on this?

You should challenge at least on the basis that you've referred to the legal references in the PCN and have been unable to find any contravention in the Penalty Charges Guidelines regs which corresponds to the one given in the PCN etc.

+1


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Pee_Dee
post Sun, 7 Oct 2018 - 07:57
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 6 Oct 2018 - 22:28) *
In simple parlance:

There isn't a contravention as stated in the PCN, therefore
There cannot be a corresponding penalty for a non-existent contravention.

The kerb stones continue across the face of their property and I suspect they'll rely on this?

You should challenge at least on the basis that you've referred to the legal references in the PCN and have been unable to find any contravention in the Penalty Charges Guidelines regs which corresponds to the one given in the PCN etc.


Brilliant. I understand now. Thank you for your help. Let's hope that this works!
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 7 Oct 2018 - 10:46
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Include both points post your draft here for review before you send.


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DancingDad
post Sun, 7 Oct 2018 - 11:49
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In simpler terms for your understanding.
A PCN must include statement of the contravention..... no specific wording needed for that and your PCN does.
But, outside London, the higher level charge being sought can only be charged against specific wording.
(Within London, both higher and lower charges have specific wording)
If that wording is not used, they can only levy the lower level charge.
By using non standard wording, they have no authority to charge the amount they seek, therefore the penalty exceeds the amount due within the circumstances of the case. That is a specific prescribed ground for cancellation of the PCN.
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Pee_Dee
post Sun, 7 Oct 2018 - 14:46
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 7 Oct 2018 - 11:46) *
Include both points post your draft here for review before you send.


Will do, thanks.


QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 7 Oct 2018 - 12:49) *
In simpler terms for your understanding.
A PCN must include statement of the contravention..... no specific wording needed for that and your PCN does.
But, outside London, the higher level charge being sought can only be charged against specific wording.
(Within London, both higher and lower charges have specific wording)
If that wording is not used, they can only levy the lower level charge.
By using non standard wording, they have no authority to charge the amount they seek, therefore the penalty exceeds the amount due within the circumstances of the case. That is a specific prescribed ground for cancellation of the PCN.


Thank. Could you direct me to the source legislation which states this please?
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peterguk
post Sun, 7 Oct 2018 - 14:59
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QUOTE (Pee_Dee @ Sun, 7 Oct 2018 - 15:46) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 7 Oct 2018 - 11:46) *
Include both points post your draft here for review before you send.


Will do, thanks.


QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 7 Oct 2018 - 12:49) *
In simpler terms for your understanding.
A PCN must include statement of the contravention..... no specific wording needed for that and your PCN does.
But, outside London, the higher level charge being sought can only be charged against specific wording.
(Within London, both higher and lower charges have specific wording)
If that wording is not used, they can only levy the lower level charge.
By using non standard wording, they have no authority to charge the amount they seek, therefore the penalty exceeds the amount due within the circumstances of the case. That is a specific prescribed ground for cancellation of the PCN.


Thank. Could you direct me to the source legislation which states this please?



ISTBC, but already posted - post no. 15.


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Pee_Dee
post Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 14:55
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Hi everyone,

Unfortunately, my neighbour has yet again called the Civil Enforcement Officers and had them issue me a PCN code 27. This is the second one in 6 weeks.

This can be viewed here:

https://ibb.co/nxODcf

https://ibb.co/h9oPiL

Upon recieveing the first one I started d to park my car at an alternative angle to try to appease the neighbour.

This can be viewed here:

https://ibb.co/ntq4iL

I know that I am obviously over his H Bar, however, and crucially, I am clearly not causing an obstruction for access.

Unfortunately, the volume of cars on the road and the layout of the culdesac means that it is very difficult to avoid parking close to his gates and over his h Bar, neither of which are a PCN offence.

I know that it is not ideal to be parked like this. Please no lecture! smile.gif

Relations have completely broken down so reasoning is not an option.

Interestingly, I have not heard back from the Council despite appealing the first PCN at the start of October. Please see earlier in thread for context.

Any advice most appreciated.

Thanks

This post has been edited by Pee_Dee: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 15:01
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 15:51
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Start a new thread for this new second PCN we need to keep the separate as the advice might/will differ at times

Note straight away the change in the contravention description (to the correct one) whilst this might aid the next steps of the first PCN this one will need a different tack

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 15:53


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Pee_Dee
post Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 16:36
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 5 Nov 2018 - 16:51) *
Start a new thread for this new second PCN we need to keep the separate as the advice might/will differ at times

Note straight away the change in the contravention description (to the correct one) whilst this might aid the next steps of the first PCN this one will need a different tack


Thank you.

Yes, I noticed that they had changed the contravention description wording. This was central to my appeal...seems a coincidence!

Will start a new thread now.

Thanks
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Pee_Dee
post Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 17:10
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I currently have two PCN code 27 appeals pending.

Part of my defence is that I contest that the access to the neighbour’s property constitutes a legal dropped kerb thus a legal access point.

His driveway is merely a continuation of the road in a cul de sac. There is no footway nor kerb physically present to have ever been “dropped”.

Do I have any rights to request information from either the local authority (Lancs County Council) or neighbour to provide proof of when work was carried out to alter the footway and kerb?

Thank you

Google earth image here

https://ibb.co/gtVsxq

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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 17:12
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QUOTE (Pee_Dee @ Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 17:10) *
I currently have two PCN code 27 appeals pending.

Part of my defence is that I contest that the access to the neighbour’s property constitutes a legal dropped kerb thus a legal access point.

His driveway is merely a continuation of the road in a cul de sac. There is no footway nor kerb physically present to have ever been “dropped”.

Do I have any rights to request information from either the local authority (Lancs County Council) or neighbour to provide proof of when work was carried out to alter the footway and kerb?

Thank you

Google earth image here

https://ibb.co/gtVsxq


see my response to your new thread


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Pee_Dee
post Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 18:24
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Thanks for the help PASTMYBEST.

How about this...

I appealed the PCN I was issued on 4th October on the same day via Blackpool Borough Council’s online appeal service. I received an appeal number and an email saying ‘please do not contact us again until you receive further correspondence from us.’

View here: https://ibb.co/iav3LA

I have not heard anything back yet, however, today I received a notice to owner in the post telling me that my initial discounted period had expired and I now owe them the full £70 fine which I have 28 days to pay.

Any idea where I stand on this?

Thanks

This post has been edited by Pee_Dee: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 18:25
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 18:59
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Is that the first PCN with the wrong contravention description. We are in danger of confusing the two and the need dealing with differently

Keep anything to do with the new PCN away from this thread and now to keep things simple and help us help you, post here in one post.

The PCN

Your Challenge

The letter rejecting your challenge

The NTO


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Pee_Dee
post Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 11:05
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 18:59) *
Is that the first PCN with the wrong contravention description. We are in danger of confusing the two and the need dealing with differently

Keep anything to do with the new PCN away from this thread and now to keep things simple and help us help you, post here in one post.

The PCN

Your Challenge

The letter rejecting your challenge

The NTO


Hi,

Yes, this relates to the first PCN which this thread relates to.

Although I received a NTO I have not received a letter rejecting my challenge. The challenge is still pending.

I have drafted a letter which I intend to post in response to the NTO and with further info for challenging the PCN.

You can view this here and I would really appreciate your input on this.

https://staidanspreesall-my.sharepoint.com/...M0uu-w?e=5SGdcI

Thank you
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 11:09
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Post up the NTO then we know where we are up to


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Pee_Dee
post Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 11:13
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 11:09) *
Post up the NTO then we know where we are up to


Link to NTO

https://ibb.co/n6wRsq
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 11:22
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QUOTE (Pee_Dee @ Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 11:13) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 11:09) *
Post up the NTO then we know where we are up to


Link to NTO

https://ibb.co/n6wRsq



That was quick. Do not send your proposed challenge, a lot of it just gives them ammunition, and the fact that they have not responded to your challenge may help you. I don't have time to sit down and pull everything together until tomorrow night but if you bump to remind me I will do so then


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Pee_Dee
post Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 11:43
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 11:22) *
QUOTE (Pee_Dee @ Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 11:13) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 11:09) *
Post up the NTO then we know where we are up to


Link to NTO

https://ibb.co/n6wRsq



That was quick. Do not send your proposed challenge, a lot of it just gives them ammunition, and the fact that they have not responded to your challenge may help you. I don't have time to sit down and pull everything together until tomorrow night but if you bump to remind me I will do so then


Okay. Thanks a lot. Will bump ya tomorrow 👍🏻
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