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Urgent advice need for court appearance tommorrow
ding
post Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 21:39
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So I'm in court tomorrow in relation (statutory declaration) speeding offence committed on the 28th July last year.

I have already recieved 6 points for this for failure to give information relating to the driver. (Post went to similar variant address to mines and paperwork was returned by the occupant of this address stating I don't lolive there. I am not the registered keeper of this vehicle my brother is he filled my name and address details in...

I am adamant I was not the driver on the day in question this offence was committed and my brother has stated the same too. It's in a location and on a road I have been on.

I've asked for photographic evidence and they've sent me a black and white copy which you clearly cannot identify the driver from.

It was 43 in a 30 zone.

Based on the poor photographic evidence should I just admit to charge 1 = Exceeding 30 miles per hour on a restricted road and plead not guilty of charge 2 - failure to identify driver of a vehicle when required seeing as they have documented evidence from the similar address to mines which states I do not live at this address hence why I wasn't aware of any letters in relation to charge 2?

Or should I contest neither I was the driver so has my brother was on the date of offence and it's not possible to clear this up based on the poor photographic evidence provided as shown below.







I have 9 points on my licence 3 from last year and now the 6 which I'm hoping to overturn tommorrow for the above offence completely, worse case scenario go away with 3 points based on best advice to take so leaving me 6 points.

Thanks in advance.



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post Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 21:39
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Irksome
post Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 22:20
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QUOTE (ding @ Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 22:39) *
So I'm in court tomorrow in relation (statutory declaration) speeding offence committed on the 28th July last year.

I have already recieved 6 points for this for failure to give information relating to the driver. (Post went to similar variant address to mines and paperwork was returned by the occupant of this address stating I don't lolive there. I am not the registered keeper of this vehicle my brother is he filled my name and address details in...

I am adamant I was not the driver on the day in question this offence was committed and my brother has stated the same too. It's in a location and on a road I have been on.

I've asked for photographic evidence and they've sent me a black and white copy which you clearly cannot identify the driver from.

It was 43 in a 30 zone.


You should plead not guilty (if asked) to both charges. You should then receive notification of a further hearing, so you will have time to figure out your way forward.

However as you are adamant you were not the driver, then you cannot take the usual advice of a plea bargain, as you cannot claim to be the driver of the vehicle at the time, and thefore you cannot be convicted of the speeding offence. You therefore can only defend the fail to provide charge.

QUOTE
Based on the poor photographic evidence should I just admit to charge 1 = Exceeding 30 miles per hour on a restricted road and plead not guilty of charge 2 - failure to identify driver of a vehicle when required seeing as they have documented evidence from the similar address to mines which states I do not live at this address hence why I wasn't aware of any letters in relation to charge 2?

Or should I contest neither I was the driver so has my brother was on the date of offence and it's not possible to clear this up based on the poor photographic evidence provided as shown below.







I have 9 points on my licence 3 from last year and now the 6 which I'm hoping to overturn tommorrow for the above offence completely, worse case scenario go away with 3 points based on best advice to take so leaving me 6 points.

Thanks in advance.


Having 9 points on your licence puts you in a difficult position. Can you give further details regarding the address anomally, presumably the RK (your brother) provided your address, did he provide the wrong address for you?


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ding
post Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 23:16
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QUOTE (Irksome @ Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 23:20) *
QUOTE (ding @ Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 22:39) *
So I'm in court tomorrow in relation (statutory declaration) speeding offence committed on the 28th July last year.

I have already recieved 6 points for this for failure to give information relating to the driver. (Post went to similar variant address to mines and paperwork was returned by the occupant of this address stating I don't lolive there. I am not the registered keeper of this vehicle my brother is he filled my name and address details in...

I am adamant I was not the driver on the day in question this offence was committed and my brother has stated the same too. It's in a location and on a road I have been on.

I've asked for photographic evidence and they've sent me a black and white copy which you clearly cannot identify the driver from.

It was 43 in a 30 zone.


You should plead not guilty (if asked) to both charges. You should then receive notification of a further hearing, so you will have time to figure out your way forward.

However as you are adamant you were not the driver, then you cannot take the usual advice of a plea bargain, as you cannot claim to be the driver of the vehicle at the time, and thefore you cannot be convicted of the speeding offence. You therefore can only defend the fail to provide charge.

QUOTE
Based on the poor photographic evidence should I just admit to charge 1 = Exceeding 30 miles per hour on a restricted road and plead not guilty of charge 2 - failure to identify driver of a vehicle when required seeing as they have documented evidence from the similar address to mines which states I do not live at this address hence why I wasn't aware of any letters in relation to charge 2?

Or should I contest neither I was the driver so has my brother was on the date of offence and it's not possible to clear this up based on the poor photographic evidence provided as shown below.







I have 9 points on my licence 3 from last year and now the 6 which I'm hoping to overturn tommorrow for the above offence completely, worse case scenario go away with 3 points based on best advice to take so leaving me 6 points.

Thanks in advance.


Having 9 points on your licence puts you in a difficult position. Can you give further details regarding the address anomally, presumably the RK (your brother) provided your address, did he provide the wrong address for you?


Indeed. I had 3 points before and now the 9 for the 6 points given to me for this offence that I am pretty sure have not committed.

I'm hoping to overturn this tommorrow and plead not guilty because I'm sure it was not me driving on the date in question.

When my brother recieved the letter through the post, he asked me about it as he said he's sure it wasn't him driving on the day in question and I said the same however as he is the registered keeper, it's obvious he filled in the paperwork without my knowledge as I recieved the letter at my mum's address which is ofcourse a correspondence address and not my main residence where my car is kept or where my driver's license is registered at.

He's used a road name that's a few hundred yards away from me but has the same door number so postie who doesn't recognise the name will obviously deliver to that specific address in question thinking nothing of it, one who knows my name will obviously pick up that and deliver to me if that makes sense

I am pretty sure I wasn't driving on the day in question so I'm just going to plead not guilty for charge one of exceeding speed limit and not guilty to charge 2 on the basis the letter for charge 2 was sent to the wrong address thus I wasn't made aware of this so couldn't response appropriately.

The last I spoke to them is when I asked for photographic evidence to try and name the driver when I got this I responded stating that the photographic evidence was not clear at all enough to name the driver in question and I cannot recall ever being on this particular road or town before.

I didn't get a response and I had completely forgotten about it until I was made aware that I had 6 points on my licence for this offence
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Jlc
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 06:34
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Firstly the photo is not to identify the driver - only the offence and the vehicle.

The timing is important - you say you asked for a photo but never received the request? As you don’t appear to be the keeper then your obligation is only to provide such information to assist in the identification of the driver.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Redivi
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 07:23
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The last I spoke to them is when I asked for photographic evidence to try and name the driver when I got this I responded stating that the photographic evidence was not clear at all enough to name the driver in question and I cannot recall ever being on this particular road or town before.

Please explain this

You say that you didn't receive any post because it was sent to the wrong address

If you had this exchange before you were prosecuted, you're guilty of the S172 offence

If it took place after you were convicted - asking for photos makes sense; telling them they don't help should be saved for the court

I also fail to understand why you say that your brother provided your mother's address but the wrong road name

Unless there's a simple explanation, this has all the appearance of an amateurish PCJ attempt

This post has been edited by Redivi: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 07:24
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Jlc
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 07:30
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 08:23) *
Unless there's a simple explanation, this has all the appearance of an amateurish PCJ attempt

The thought had crossed my mind - I'm actually surprised they didn't go back to the RK... Something doesn't quite add up at the moment.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Redivi
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 08:07
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Assuming the Statutory Declaration is successful

If the OP is asked on the spot how he wants to plead, he wants to go Not Guilty for both charges

This will at least adjourn a new prosecution for long enough to sort out his position

This post may of course be redundant if he doesn't see it before his hearing at 9:30
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ding
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 08:35
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Hi guys inside court now.

Basically I recieved the usual first corresponce after RK names the driver in question stating the alleged offence speed, location and date. I immediately responded that I could not possibly be the driver in question - do you have photographic evidence that could assist in naming the driver as there's three possibilities it was either me or my brother or someone had cloned his plates...

When I sent this off to them, I recieved no further correspondence from them and forgot about the matter.

Charge 2 failure to give information in relation to the identity of the driver was sent out a few months after the alleged offence. This was sent to an address that is similar to where my mother lives a few hundred yards away so I didn't know. Same door number but slightly different road name.

The person at this address didn't give me the photographic evidence bit dated 5 November until after January. I immediately responded and as above did not hear anything else in regards to the above matter.

It's only when looking at my driver's license online that I was given 6 penalty points for failure to identify the driver.

Now I'm here in court for the SAT DEC. Court usher says there's no procesuction available today so it's either a plead guilty and make the matter be dealt with now or plead not guilty now and let the matter be heard at a further date.

Sorry I'm not good with getting my words out but based on what I've further stated now what should I plead.

I have the photographic evidence from the police force in question where the address variant is slightly different to my mother's address should I bring this up in court or letting them know I have this paperwork even though the person who lives at this address gave me it in January of this year, would it be digging myself a hole?

The court stated when I arranged for a SAT DEC that the variant of my mother's address that they had on file from the way my brother filled out the address details the person at this address sent back some paperwork stating that I did not live here, I'm guessing this paperwork was in relation to attending court for the offence which I'm been found guilty for in my absence.

The offence was committed on 28th July and given MS60 in October so I guess I was convicted on that date? I wasn't given paperwork of photographic evidence by the person at this similar address variant to my mother until January of this year, I responded to the photographic evidence that I requested but never heard a response and forgot about the whole matter.

Why my brother filled out the form like the way he did like that I do not know.

This post has been edited by ding: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 08:53
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Jlc
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 10:06
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QUOTE (ding @ Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 09:35) *
The offence was committed on 28th July and given MS60 in October so I guess I was convicted on that date?

It would have been MS90 - the offence date is roughly a month after the request is made. (Thus the October date)

QUOTE (ding @ Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 09:35) *
Basically I recieved the usual first corresponce after RK names the driver in question stating the alleged offence speed, location and date. I immediately responded that I could not possibly be the driver in question - do you have photographic evidence that could assist in naming the driver as there's three possibilities it was either me or my brother or someone had cloned his plates...

So as I said earlier, as you do not appear to be the person keeping vehicle there's a lower obligation of details to be provided - "any other person shall if required as stated above give any information which it is in his power to give and may lead to identification of the driver".

Stating you weren't the driver isn't quite the question but the prosecution would have to show you had some information that may have led to the driver identification.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 10:40


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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gilan02
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 10:08
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QUOTE (ding @ Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 09:35) *
Basically I recieved the usual first corresponce after RK names the driver in question stating the alleged offence speed, location and date.

What address was this sent to?
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Jlc
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 10:41
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QUOTE (gilan02 @ Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 11:08) *
QUOTE (ding @ Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 09:35) *
Basically I recieved the usual first corresponce after RK names the driver in question stating the alleged offence speed, location and date.

What address was this sent to?

The OP received it - even though the address was 'incorrect'. I think they received it in good time.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 10:42


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 11:06
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Right now you just need to plead not guilty to both, the strategy for the hearing can then be thrashed out.


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southpaw82
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 12:46
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 11:41) *
QUOTE (gilan02 @ Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 11:08) *
QUOTE (ding @ Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 09:35) *
Basically I recieved the usual first corresponce after RK names the driver in question stating the alleged offence speed, location and date.

What address was this sent to?

The OP received it - even though the address was 'incorrect'. I think they received it in good time.

Receipt is not the same as service.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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ding
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 13:10
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Let me make it a bit more clearer hope this helps

Brother recieved the letter in relation to offence a few weeks after it happened, asked if I was driving I stated no 100%. He says it wasn't him either, he then later fills out my details without my consent as I didn't commit offence in question and he never told me he was gonna fill in my details and send it off.

At the time of this offence according to the justice letter my brother's van wasn't registered according to DVLA and got his details from looking up the insurance vehicle details of the van which is all in his name.

The address details on the form he filled in is a slight variation to the address where my mother resides, we have had letters over the years in this format but if you are not a regular postie on the round and you wouldn't know that the letter is in fact address to the house across the road (my mother's)

So postcode for example my mother's being B90 8EH, he filled it in as B90 8DL, B90 8EH being the correct address and B90 8DL being the wrong address as it's for the house across the road with the same door number but on a different road.

I recieved the form in the post when he filled in my name it was addressed in the variation to the house across the road.

I didn't fill in form and I think I either phoned in or written and requested photographic proof to see if I could name the driver as it certainly wasn't me and if I could see from the pictures who was behind the wheel for this matter I would of responded back and given them their details. Got photographic proof but pictures weren't clear enough and I duly sent it back from them stating I could not name the driver based on the photographics provided did they have any further proof or any information that could assist in naming the driver.. on the letter head I also included my mother's proper address in case they responded and postie delivered to the house across the road with the same door number but it being on a different road..

It wasn't until another driving offence popped up that I didn't commit in relation to a vehicle that was written off a few years ago but still in my name even though logbook was sent off that i was made aware of this offence 3 weeks ago as for that offence I was told I was looking at getting disqualified because the amount of points on my licence.

I then checked my driver's license and then found out I was given a MS60 for this SAT DEC court appearance today in regards to my brother's van..

So essentially all the paperwork in relation to court hearing and being found guilty in my absence I did not receive whatsoever it was sent to my house across the road from my mother's with same door number but slight variation in address and postcode.

The lady at this address according to the courts at the town this offence happend basically sent back correspondence stating that such person (myself does not live at this address as stated by the clerk when I phoned up to get this offence transferred to my local court in Birmingham for a SAT DEC hearing

Why on earth the lady across the road did not bring it over the road instead of sending it back to the courts I do not know..

Why on earth my stupid brother used that address variation I do not know either, our local postie years ago would know that address variant would be for us based on names on the letter but for a new postie and there are always changing around here, they won't know that and will post the letter to the house across the road accordingly thinking nothing of it as that's where it's address to and they don't know us long enough by name to see that those letters are actually meant for us.

Does this make from start from finish to the position I am currently in make more sense?

I also pleaded not guilty to both offences so it's now being sent back to Luton crown court where I have to attend for a trial. My stress levels is through the roof!!

They told me the points I received for this offence (6 points will be quashed until the court date in luton. Is that correct? So in a few weeks/days it should be removed right?

Atleast I have some breathing space to get some proper legal advice.




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southpaw82
post Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 13:55
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I doubt it’ll be at Crown court. That would only be for an appeal, and you’re not at that stage yet.


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flexeh
post Mon, 29 Apr 2019 - 15:37
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Still doesn't make 100% sense on the address.

QUOTE
"He's used a road name that's a few hundred yards away from me but has the same door number so postie who doesn't recognise the name will obviously deliver to that specific address in question thinking nothing of it, one who knows my name will obviously pick up that and deliver to me if that makes sense"


QUOTE
"This was sent to an address that is similar to where my mother lives a few hundred yards away so I didn't know. Same door number but slightly different road name."

QUOTE
"The address details on the form he filled in is a slight variation to the address where my mother resides, we have had letters over the years in this format but if you are not a regular postie on the round and you wouldn't know that the letter is in fact address to the house across the road (my mother's)

So postcode for example my mother's being B90 8EH, he filled it in as B90 8DL, B90 8EH being the correct address and B90 8DL being the wrong address as it's for the house across the road with the same door number but on a different road."


QUOTE
So essentially all the paperwork in relation to court hearing and being found guilty in my absence I did not receive whatsoever it was sent to my house across the road from my mother's with same door number but slight variation in address and postcode.


So is it over the road? is it hundreds of yards away? are the street names the same? I've had my post with the wrong postcode but correct street name. Never known 2 streets next to each other or opposite each other have similar spellings, if incase that happened im sure the post office would then look to see what should be the correct address based on other mail.

Out of curiosity - whats the street name it should have gone to and whats the street name of where it went.

This post has been edited by flexeh: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 - 15:37
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thisisntme
post Wed, 1 May 2019 - 03:35
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QUOTE (flexeh @ Mon, 29 Apr 2019 - 15:37) *
Out of curiosity - whats the street name it should have gone to and whats the street name of where it went.


I doubt you would get a true answer to that - I wouldn't give you one on a public forum that is monitored by law enforcement, and pseudo street names won't necessarily be all that helpful.


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