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Bus Lane PCN Enforcement Notice, North Street, Romford
carlosescobar
post Tue, 24 Oct 2017 - 12:54
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This case is related to the following Linked thread

Attached is an image of the violation. which has taken place on North Street in Romford near my work.
[attachment=51474:hav_0.jpg]

I approach North Street from Cedar Road and naturally look right to check oncoming traffic to turn into the road going Northbound. I seem to have missed the sign on the left which I couldn't see as the car is facing the road at an angle away from the sign.

[attachment=51475:hav_2.jpg] [attachment=51476:hav_3.jpg] [attachment=51477:hav_4.jpg] [attachment=51478:hav_5.jpg]

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated as it will help me with a bigger problem of multiple Enforcement Notices for the same offence.
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post Tue, 24 Oct 2017 - 12:54
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John U.K.
post Fri, 3 Nov 2017 - 12:24
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QUOTE
All I can see is the sign showing all lanes I can go with the arrows and the bus stop.


Can you not see the broad white line and the word BUS on the road?
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carlosescobar
post Mon, 6 Nov 2017 - 16:22
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I'm going to start a draft of the challenge. Maybe focusing on the differences in the regulation against the EN. Any help would be appreciated as i'm not sure how to word this.

Also, What may not be clear on Google Maps is the fact that there is a one way system in place. So on my way to work I take Hainault Road as follows:



Going home I have to go onto North Street:



However, I found interesting the fact that if you go to North Street using Hainault Road via the following route you can't see any visible signs (including the new one which has been placed at the junction with Cedar Road and North Street):



Can this scenario or anything else in this thread be added in the challenge?

This post has been edited by carlosescobar: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 - 16:23
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carlosescobar
post Tue, 7 Nov 2017 - 18:54
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QUOTE (John U.K. @ Fri, 3 Nov 2017 - 12:24) *
QUOTE
All I can see is the sign showing all lanes I can go with the arrows and the bus stop.


Can you not see the broad white line and the word BUS on the road?

Yes. Can see the word Bus Stop.

Maybe this is irrelevant as most people naturally look right when they come to a junction anyway. Unless you’re from abroad.
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carlosescobar
post Thu, 9 Nov 2017 - 14:22
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Below is a draft of my challenge:

Tick - There was no breach of the bus lane regulations.
Tick - Procedural Impropriety.
Tick - Any other ground you wish to raise.

1. Signage is inadequate –
a. No bus lane signage can be seen when approaching North Street from Hainault Road via Cedar Road.
b. Google Street View shows that the sign 962 at the junction with Cedar Road and North Street didn’t exist before August 2016. This would suggest the Council have since become aware of and tried to rectify the signage issue for Cedar Road. However, there is no resolution for those arriving at the junction from Hainault Road as this sign can’t be seen due to the angle of approach. Also, sign 962 is not as per guidance as it is missing the words 'Bus Lane'. Was the sign present when the alleged contravention took place? I can’t see the sign in the photographic evidence provided.
c. Sign 959 on North Street is very high out of the drivers view. Also, it is natural to only look right at the junction to check for oncoming traffic before turning.
d. As can be seen from the photographic evidence I did not obstruct any bus during my brief time in this lane.

2. The Enforcement Notice is Null and void –
a. The EN makes repeated reference to Notice to Owner and the Traffic Management Act 2004 giving grounds for representation and appeal that would have no part in Bus Lane enforcement.
b. It states a 56 day rule which has never related to the legislation noted at the top of the document.

3. Repeat Behaviour –
a. I have repeated this alleged contravention on a number of occasions without knowing it was a problem. I didn't receive any of the original notices as they were sent to an old address. If I had received the original PCN I wouldn't have driven in the same section of road over and over again. Since I became aware of the problem in October 2017 I haven’t driven in this lane.

I would welcome any advice with this as I need to submit it soon.

Also, pardon my ignorance but I have a question regarding the letter sent with the EN. It mentions that a new Penalty Chage Notice is enclosed. However, what I have received is an Enforcement Notice. Is the PCN and EN one and the same?



This post has been edited by carlosescobar: Fri, 10 Nov 2017 - 12:08
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 16:58
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Post up the document received from TEC (the revoking order) and what you received from the council


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Neil B
post Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 17:29
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QUOTE (carlosescobar @ Thu, 9 Nov 2017 - 14:22) *
Also, pardon my ignorance but I have a question regarding the letter sent with the EN. It mentions that a new Penalty Chage Notice is enclosed. However, what I have received is an Enforcement Notice. Is the PCN and EN one and the same?

You are not ignorant; the legislation is a mess.
EN is the correct document after reset. The equivalent of Notice to Owner in parking.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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carlosescobar
post Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 18:09
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 16:58) *
Post up the document received from TEC (the revoking order) and what you received from the council

Hi PMB, I've added the docs here
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 18:37
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QUOTE (carlosescobar @ Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 18:09) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 16:58) *
Post up the document received from TEC (the revoking order) and what you received from the council

Hi PMB, I've added the docs here


post them here I do not want to go searching for them or make reps against the EN


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carlosescobar
post Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 21:01
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Below are the docs received from TEC and Havering:

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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 21:11
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Where is the revoking order and where is the enforcement notice. All you have posted is haverings objection to your out of time


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carlosescobar
post Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 22:11
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Sorry please ignore the previous docs posted in error.

Here is the TEC revocation order and Havering EN:





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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 22:26
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Right you have until Thursday to get representations to the council Go with what you have re the signage. The council are not going to accept anyway so it is at adjudication you put all in


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carlosescobar
post Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 12:28
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 12 Nov 2017 - 22:26) *
Right you have until Thursday to get representations to the council Go with what you have re the signage. The council are not going to accept anyway so it is at adjudication you put all in

OK, I'll submit this today. Just to be clear I'll only tick the box 'There was no breach of the bus lane regulations' with the following statement:

Signage is inadequate –
a. No bus lane signage can be seen when approaching North Street from Hainault Road via Cedar Road.
b. Google Street View shows that the sign 962 at the junction with Cedar Road and North Street didn’t exist before August 2016. This would suggest the Council have since become aware of and tried to rectify the signage issue for Cedar Road. However, there is no resolution for those arriving at the junction from Hainault Road as this sign can’t be seen due to the angle of approach. Also, sign 962 is not as per guidance as it is missing the words 'Bus Lane'. Was the sign present when the alleged contravention took place? I can’t see the sign in the photographic evidence provided.
c. Sign 959 on North Street is very high out of the drivers view. Also, it is natural to only look right at the junction to check for oncoming traffic before turning.


I won't mention the problems with the EN or the repeat behaviour in this challenge. This I'll save for Adjudication.
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carlosescobar
post Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 23:40
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I've just tried to go online and submit my challenge but I'm getting the following response:



I've counted and today is day 27 from the 18th October. Any idea what I should do?
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 23:48
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Send by post get and keep safe a free proof of posting. Lets not let this get messy. You are going to have to do another statutory declaration. But this time that you made representations in time but the authority did not respond
This will re set once again and go before an adjudicator for direction.

So you must make these reps in time. That is Thursday (the operative date being date of service) So you post tomorrow get proof of posting they get it Thursday (service works both ways) and you can make a ligit SD

Kin idiots have handed you a win


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carlosescobar
post Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 00:09
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 23:48) *
Send by post get and keep safe a free proof of posting. Lets not let this get messy. You are going to have to do another statutory declaration. But this time that you made representations in time but the authority did not respond
This will re set once again and go before an adjudicator for direction.

So you must make these reps in time. That is Thursday (the operative date being date of service) So you post tomorrow get proof of posting they get it Thursday (service works both ways) and you can make a ligit SD

Kin idiots have handed you a win

Thanks for the advice. Can I post them all together (4 separate PCNs)? I can send them registered for extra security.

This post has been edited by carlosescobar: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 00:14
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 08:50
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QUOTE (carlosescobar @ Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 00:09) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 23:48) *
Send by post get and keep safe a free proof of posting. Lets not let this get messy. You are going to have to do another statutory declaration. But this time that you made representations in time but the authority did not respond
This will re set once again and go before an adjudicator for direction.

So you must make these reps in time. That is Thursday (the operative date being date of service) So you post tomorrow get proof of posting they get it Thursday (service works both ways) and you can make a ligit SD

Kin idiots have handed you a win

Thanks for the advice. Can I post them all together (4 separate PCNs)? I can send them registered for extra security.


This is no getting out of hand. and you are not telling us everything. Where on the revoking order does it say 4 PCN's if you have not done OOT for each then you are where you are


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carlosescobar
post Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 10:04
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 08:50) *
QUOTE (carlosescobar @ Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 00:09) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 23:48) *
Send by post get and keep safe a free proof of posting. Lets not let this get messy. You are going to have to do another statutory declaration. But this time that you made representations in time but the authority did not respond
This will re set once again and go before an adjudicator for direction.

So you must make these reps in time. That is Thursday (the operative date being date of service) So you post tomorrow get proof of posting they get it Thursday (service works both ways) and you can make a ligit SD

Kin idiots have handed you a win

Thanks for the advice. Can I post them all together (4 separate PCNs)? I can send them registered for extra security.


This is no getting out of hand. and you are not telling us everything. Where on the revoking order does it say 4 PCN's if you have not done OOT for each then you are where you are

My orignal thread is here: Link

To summarise, I received 8 PCNs for the same contravention. After contacting TEC I have got 4 of them reset to EN stage via revoking orders. I was advised to start a new thread to discuss what to put in the representations.

I thought it would be easier to deal with one of the ENs as they are all virtually identical. I'll stick to just the one from now on. Sorry for the confusion.
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 11:10
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QUOTE (carlosescobar @ Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 10:04) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 08:50) *
QUOTE (carlosescobar @ Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 00:09) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 23:48) *
Send by post get and keep safe a free proof of posting. Lets not let this get messy. You are going to have to do another statutory declaration. But this time that you made representations in time but the authority did not respond
This will re set once again and go before an adjudicator for direction.

So you must make these reps in time. That is Thursday (the operative date being date of service) So you post tomorrow get proof of posting they get it Thursday (service works both ways) and you can make a ligit SD

Kin idiots have handed you a win

Thanks for the advice. Can I post them all together (4 separate PCNs)? I can send them registered for extra security.


This is no getting out of hand. and you are not telling us everything. Where on the revoking order does it say 4 PCN's if you have not done OOT for each then you are where you are

My orignal thread is here: Link

To summarise, I received 8 PCNs for the same contravention. After contacting TEC I have got 4 of them reset to EN stage via revoking orders. I was advised to start a new thread to discuss what to put in the representations.

I thought it would be easier to deal with one of the ENs as they are all virtually identical. I'll stick to just the one from now on. Sorry for the confusion.


It would have been, Make sure all 4 have had CC issued against them then yes 4 separate reps I would send them separately (hang the expense) get 4 proof of posting. DO NOT send registered or recorded large organizations do not always sign for them and all you would have is proof of non service do it today do not miss the post


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Neil B
post Tue, 14 Nov 2017 - 11:35
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You must get this posted today per PMB. X4

I disagree on not mentioning PCN flaws but too late now and doesn't much matter.

--
I think some assumptions are being made about the web page message.

Are these 4X entirely new PCN numbers or the same numbers as the original PCNs ?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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