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Company PCN within 21days
teccom
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 10:50
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Hi All,

Most below links to MSE, but any help here much appreciated too:-

We recieved a PCN initially photocopied to us from our lease company (with a nice £18 charge), naturally I know the lease company would provide our company details as the "hirer" and in turn we would eventually recieve a letter from the PPC direct, and at such time I would look on here.


Anyway looking to NEWBIES section I straight away went to the advice setion namely Edna Bashers commercial ABC LTD letters.

Details:- (basic to US after lease co sent our details, time obscured to afternoon)
London Parking Solutions via PCN Parking Solutions BN52
To OUR COMPANY LTD (and address)
Date of posting: 02/10/18 (recieved by us 4th)
VRN - correct
location - correct
Time of issue of notice to driver = 17/09/18 in AFTERNOON (no screen ticket altho this implies there is)
Admin charge = NIL
Total amount = £60
Reason for issue = No valid permit on display

A parking charge notice was issued to the above vehicle, VRM XYZ because it was parked on a private property on the dates and times shown above and the reason for issue was namely: No valid permit on display

The driver, must now pay £100, 21days blah blah.

We have been informed by the registered keeper of the above mentioned vehicle that you were the hirer at the time of the parking event. the T&Cs, to which the blah blah signs throughout the location.

Please note this a PCN not fine blah blah.

IMPORTANT NOTICE TO HIRER
Relying on Sect4 PoFA blah

END

Its identical to others forum posters recieved from same back office, namely PCN Parking Solutions.
No evidence with PCN above, but signing in their site paymypcn.net shows some terrible pics, photostamped day later at the earlier hours of the morning not the afternoon of the "alleged event".

Anyway looking at the company response suggested by Edna and CouponMad, the argument on PoFA and on the NEWBIE page appear to be related to the 21days and looking at a few posts some PPL have recieved their PCN 30odd and plus days later, ours from "event" date to recieving PCN ourselves is 15, 17days if you allow 2 days postage.


However I noted on other posts PoFA requires some sort of evidence to also be submitted to comply, so is the 21days window not being an argument NULL and the argument is they havent furnished evidence in the same mail (website portal aside) as stated here:-

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...t=abc+appeal#47
QUOTE
The NtK does not even explain whether a Parking Charge Notice was issued to the driver at the time of the alleged incident (in which case Schedule 4, Paragraph 8 would apply) or whether CEL is seeking to rely upon photographic evidence captured by ANPR cameras (in which case Schedule 4, Paragraph 9 would apply).
END-QUOTE

In addition I note mention of furnishing of "relevant hire documents" as a requirement here:-

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...ht=abc+appeal#9
QUOTE
Of course, there are other reasons why the Notice to Hirer did not comply with POFA, not least because New Generation will not have included all of the relevant hire documents required under Paragraphs 13 and 14 of Schedule 4 of POFA.
END-QUOTE

So perhaps I need a slightly modified version of version of Ednas:-

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...php?t=5881338#7

Post pointed to in NEWBIES 2018 update, stating the 2 above points?

The company is IPC dodgy mob and I understand my employee literally nipped in to use the loo of a restaurant where the ticket was issued but not bothered about that and think it should be dealt with at company level rather than passing on the driver details.

Any input and thanks in advance
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post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 10:50
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 10:53
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To summarise:


In order to hold a vehicle Hirer liable they must comply with POFA2012 sched 4 para 14
Thatr requires a copy of the original lease or hire documents to be sent WITH the Notice to Hirer, and must be done within 21 days
if they did not do so - and to my knowlegde, NO ppc manages to do so - then that is a slam dunk unarguable point of failure to engage Hirer liabilty under POFA
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ostell
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 11:17
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When the company receive their very own Notice to Hirer in their own name then if the documents were not there then, following on from nosferatu, you can send:

Sirs

Ref PCN xxxxx VRM yyyyyy

We are the hirer of the above vehicle and are in receipt of the PCN you issued. We have no liability on this matter as you have failed to meet the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to supply the additional documents mandated by section 14 (2) (a) of the Act. You cannot therefore transfer liability from the driver at the time to us, the hirer.

There is no legal requirement to identify the driver at the time and we will not be doing so. As a body corporate we could not have been the driver at the time.

Any further communication with us on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and our details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc.


Send this so that it arrives a day or two before the 21 days given so that they will not be able to reissue a corrected version of the NTH within the mandated time.

When you have successfully brushed off the parking claim then get out the hire contract that you have and look at the section that describes the charges they may make. It will probably say they can charge for penalties and fines but will probably not make any mention of charging for invoices received from Private Parking Companies. You therefor reclaim that £18 as it was taken without authority and outside their T & Cs

This post has been edited by ostell: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 11:23
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ManxRed
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 11:20
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Out of interest, what does your vehicle lease agreement say about parking charges, and associated admin fees?

Many of them simply refer to penalties and fines issued by authorities, but this is neither, and may not be covered as attracting an £18 admin fee.


--------------------
Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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teccom
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 11:49
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 11:53) *
To summarise:


In order to hold a vehicle Hirer liable they must comply with POFA2012 sched 4 para 14
Thatr requires a copy of the original lease or hire documents to be sent WITH the Notice to Hirer, and must be done within 21 days
if they did not do so - and to my knowlegde, NO ppc manages to do so - then that is a slam dunk unarguable point of failure to engage Hirer liabilty under POFA


Pukka!

I just read it, basically para14(1-a) requires para13(2-abc) which they have nudging liability from lease co to hirer, but the creditor PPC has to under para14(2-a) furnish a copy of these documents from the lease co!

AND further more...

para14(2-b) within 21days, on which the notice to hirer was given has elapsed!

So begs the question should I wait until 21days from "Time of issue" i.e. event, or date of posting to me which is stamped on their PCN.

I don't want to give them time to furnish this, but assuming it is from "Time of issue/event", then they wont have time now anyway to meet 21days..


Thoughts?
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ostell
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 11:57
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OK the 21 days is from the date that they receive the details from the Hire company so for safety sake I suggest the time from the date of sending of letter that your company receive. If that time's passed then send it now.
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The Rookie
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 12:07
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As they almost certainly don't have a copy of the agreement you could reply in 14 days and they still couldn't get it to you in time.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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ostell
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 12:13
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Just in case the hire compnay complied. I know occasionally PE letters say that they have copies of the hire agreement etc on their Notice to Hirer (but still fail to send) so just in case. (But then PE aren't known for being truthful)
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teccom
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 12:16
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QUOTE (ManxRed @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 12:20) *
Out of interest, what does your vehicle lease agreement say about parking charges, and associated admin fees?

Many of them simply refer to penalties and fines issued by authorities, but this is neither, and may not be covered as attracting an £18 admin fee.


We are checking although my accounts said the charge states send a confirmation of charge cancellation and the remit fees back.

QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 12:57) *
OK the 21 days is from the date that they receive the details from the Hire company so for safety sake I suggest the time from the date of sending of letter that your company receive. If that time's passed then send it now.


To clarify the date we received the letter from the LEASE co, or the date from the PPC?


I don't see a timeframe on the PoFA of me having to reply to them, only 21days for them to furnish me?

Or am I reading that wrong.
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 13:12
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You should not have to get this cancelled in order to get fees back they likely had no authority to take in the first place.

The date of issue of the Notice to Hirer sent to YOUR company FROM the PPC.

They will have their own deadlines for offering "appeals", and for simplicyt try to stick to those deadlines.
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ostell
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 13:34
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It's just that if you contest the imposition of the charge AFTER the charge has been cancelled it gives a somewhat higher moral platform to demand the cancellation.
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teccom
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 14:35
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QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 14:34) *
It's just that if you contest the imposition of the charge AFTER the charge has been cancelled it gives a somewhat higher moral platform to demand the cancellation.


The interesting thing is the company previously "network" were taken over by "leaseplan" and it is only since then they have started charging the £18, they say previously never exercised but had the right to.


Anyway I disagree with the idea of show it is cancelled and we will remit back, what nonsense, this can drag on for ages, possibly a year!


We have emailed them to send a copy of the T&Cs of which we signed/agreed to where a private invoice from one company to another would result in a charge!

See what they come back with as lately amongst the vehicles/vans we've had a double-dip, 1-digit wrong on machine, stupid tickets on sites with no signage who give up instantly on appeal, and we have had 4 £18 charges.
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ostell
post Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 20:26
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You're lucky! Some of the companies ask for over £50
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 07:18
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Leaseplan is big enough to know the FCA woul dhave a field day with them, as a fully regulated business, charigng *clearly* more than plain admin . Even £18 is too high - banks costs are around £5 a letter, all in, and thats far harder to deal with thana simple VRM lookup and address match. #

as for morale high ground? Screw that, business to business, Leaseplan knew what they were signing up to and canot claim ignoreance. Theyve known the difference for a decade.
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teccom
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 10:02
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 08:18) *
Leaseplan is big enough to know the FCA woul dhave a field day with them, as a fully regulated business, charigng *clearly* more than plain admin . Even £18 is too high - banks costs are around £5 a letter, all in, and thats far harder to deal with thana simple VRM lookup and address match. #

as for morale high ground? Screw that, business to business, Leaseplan knew what they were signing up to and canot claim ignoreance. Theyve known the difference for a decade.


They are trying it on I replied to their email to me yesterday evening:-

START
The recharge was issued accordingly to your contractual agreement terms and conditions which clearly state:
2.2 You must pay all fixed penalty charges, fines, congestion charges or any other penalties in connection with the Vehicle or its use, including any fine in connection with failure to register the Vehicle on the Motor Insurance Database. If we pay or transfer liability to you for any of these sums on your behalf you will repay us upon demand any sums so paid and an administration fee.

If you wish to contest this, you will need to contact the originating company behind the fine and raise this with them. If they uphold your dispute then LeasePlan will be refunded and from that, we will issue you a credit note.
END

My reply:

START
Thanks for this but that is a copy/paste, I did request a copy of the signed agreement.

Also the items you have charged for are an invoice from a private company, not any of:-

fixed penalty charges, fines, congestion charges or any other penalties

Also we sent you several emails proving cancellation of several of these invoices.

Please confirm by return correctly to my email.
END

See what they do!
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 10:14
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If they still waffle, state

- you must treat tis as a complaint as you have broken the agreement by taking amounts without authorisation.
- a failure to properly consider your complaint, including the very specific detail that their terms and conditions do NOT cover private parking charges, will be used should you need to escalate to the BVRLA and to the FCA.
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Churchmouse
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 11:52
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QUOTE (teccom @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 11:02) *
QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 08:18) *
Leaseplan is big enough to know the FCA woul dhave a field day with them, as a fully regulated business, charigng *clearly* more than plain admin . Even £18 is too high - banks costs are around £5 a letter, all in, and thats far harder to deal with thana simple VRM lookup and address match. #

as for morale high ground? Screw that, business to business, Leaseplan knew what they were signing up to and canot claim ignoreance. Theyve known the difference for a decade.


They are trying it on I replied to their email to me yesterday evening:-

START
The recharge was issued accordingly to your contractual agreement terms and conditions which clearly state:
2.2 You must pay all fixed penalty charges, fines, congestion charges or any other penalties in connection with the Vehicle or its use, including any fine in connection with failure to register the Vehicle on the Motor Insurance Database. If we pay or transfer liability to you for any of these sums on your behalf you will repay us upon demand any sums so paid and an administration fee.

If you wish to contest this, you will need to contact the originating company behind the fine and raise this with them. If they uphold your dispute then LeasePlan will be refunded and from that, we will issue you a credit note.
END

When they say "LeasePlan will be refunded" it sounds like they think LeasePlan is liable for the charges--and has paid something that is capable of being "refunded"? Otherwise, it's nonsense. (Apart from the fact that the things they list in paragraph 2.2 are not akin to parking charge notices/invoices.)

--Churchmouse
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