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ULEZ AND Congestion Charging PCN's
nee0Waey
post Sun, 1 Dec 2019 - 13:38
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Hello,
ten days ago around 5pm I was driving to London, Oval tube station area, from Luton area -> down on M1 then A41 etc. I always relied on Waze navigation app with 'Avoid toll roads' switched on, and I did this route many times in the past this year, but stopped driving there regularly around June. Waze took me to Park Rd and then to Gloucester Place.
This time there was a moment that I think I saw ULEZ/Congestion Charging signs, but as I said I relied (too much) on the navi.
Now I have TWO PCN's, both with the same pictures, timing and so on, where I entered the zone on Gloucester Place/York Street.
I am pretty sure that there is nothing I can do apart from paying £80.00 x2 in the first two weeks, however I am also not totally sure if one can get two PCN's in the same place.

Please share your knowledge here with me on this issue.
Thank you
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post Sun, 1 Dec 2019 - 13:38
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stamfordman
post Sun, 1 Dec 2019 - 13:44
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See this:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...130376&st=0


Post the PCNs - ULEZ and congestion charging are two different things.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.
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nee0Waey
post Tue, 3 Dec 2019 - 13:08
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Attached Image

Attached Image


I called to 0343 222 3333 and asked for video or better quality pictures, the guy on the other side refused saying that they do not provide videos and all they need is the picture from their camera with reg number, and they will not provide to me a better quality pics.
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cp8759
post Tue, 3 Dec 2019 - 21:52
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It is possible to get the video, but to be honest I'm not sure what there is to be achieved. By your own admission there were signs in place, following a sat nav is no defence, the CC signs have been around for a very long time and at the end of the day, either you were there or you weren't. If you were, there really isn't much you can do to challenge these.


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stamfordman
post Tue, 3 Dec 2019 - 22:03
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If you read the thread I linked to the OP got the ULEZ cancelled and is waiting on a CC appeal.
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nee0Waey
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 08:49
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 3 Dec 2019 - 21:52) *
It is possible to get the video, but to be honest I'm not sure what there is to be achieved. By your own admission there were signs in place, following a sat nav is no defence, the CC signs have been around for a very long time and at the end of the day, either you were there or you weren't. If you were, there really isn't much you can do to challenge these.

Are you saying that they lied to me about the video? I have this phone conversation recorded.
What I want to achieve - its December, I have to pay car insurance and Christmas time is coming, so lots of gifts to buy and other related expenses, I would be great to pay this next month and in my understanding applying for the video would put the penalty on hold. That's all. Not challenging anything.
However the point now is - did they lied to me about the video and why.
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stamfordman
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 09:02
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TFL sends out videos on DVDs so they are costly to do. They should not have lied to you.

My take is that you should challenge both as per the other thread to start with and see what rejections you get as the ULEZ one was then not contested.

We can PM the other OP to see when his case is coming up for the CC and to get him to post docs.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 09:05
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nee0Waey
post Wed, 4 Dec 2019 - 09:14
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 3 Dec 2019 - 22:03) *
If you read the thread I linked to the OP got the ULEZ cancelled and is waiting on a CC appeal.

Yeah I saw that. I am in London tomorrow and will try to get there and make some pictures, google street map has pictures from this place from May 2012...
Seriously can't remember the signage and chances to do a turn/U-turn.
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nee0Waey
post Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 21:00
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So it as a trap place. Approaching Gloucester Place/York Street where CC/ULEZ starts you can see vague sign as on the first picture, right before Bickenhall Street.
Then, when you before this intersection you cannot do anything - no legal U-turn, can't go left, and straight and right turn lead you to CC/ULEZ
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This post has been edited by nee0Waey: Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 21:07
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 5 Dec 2019 - 22:32
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Seeing dates would have helped.

If you want to stretch out the payment period make sure you send representations against both of them to arrive on the 28th day after the date of service of the notice. This is two WORKING days after the date of notice. The council may but are unlikely to respond before Xmas but even if they do you will get a further 14 days if they reoffer the discount or 28 days if not or you can go to adjudication. But it does not sound like you have reason for this


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nee0Waey
post Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 10:25
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OK, just for clarification:
Date of Service == Issue Date ?
Issue date is obviously about a week after the date of contravention
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stamfordman
post Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 10:35
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The signage is still the inadequate one that doesn't show the route round the block via Baker Street to turn round.
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cp8759
post Sat, 7 Dec 2019 - 01:24
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QUOTE (nee0Waey @ Fri, 6 Dec 2019 - 10:25) *
OK, just for clarification:
Date of Service == Issue Date ?

No, the date of service is two working days after posting.


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nee0Waey
post Fri, 3 Jan 2020 - 15:58
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So I made representation for CC. Next day I wanted to make a representation for ULEZ but the status on TFL website showed "Current status Representation submitted Under review".
Just before Christmas my representation has been rejected - for CC.
I have paid already for CC but the status for ULEZ is still the same.
I do not really understand that, I did not manage to make the representation.
What would be your suggestions, wait longer?
Thanks!
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cp8759
post Sat, 4 Jan 2020 - 13:20
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Have you taken timed/dated screenshots of the TFL website showing you can't make representations? If not, do so now. What's the date of issue of the ULEZ penalty?

This post has been edited by cp8759: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 - 13:21


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nee0Waey
post Mon, 6 Jan 2020 - 09:04
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Thank you, I just saved TfL website page. And screenshot.
Date of issue for ULEZ is end of November 2019
Please see attached screenshot
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hcandersen
post Mon, 6 Jan 2020 - 09:35
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So, we have:

So I made representation for CC. Next day I wanted to make a representation for ULEZ but the status on TFL website showed "Current status Representation submitted Under review"
.

Which would suggest you should post the reps you made so that we can see whether in fact what you submitted could be taken as reps against either! To be clear, we need the reps and date and method of submitting.

And 'end of November' in the context of a time-dependent process is not really much use. The date of issue of the ULEZ PCN was???
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nee0Waey
post Mon, 6 Jan 2020 - 13:49
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Apologise guys. I'm sorry.

1. Issue date of original CC PCN - 27/11/19
2. Issue date of original ULEZ PCN - 28/11/19
3. Representation submitted for CC on 10/12/19 and PCN sent on hold on 11/12/19
- I've got four exactly the same confirmation emails from tflenforcement.
4. Representation rejected on 23/12/19

Closed CC PCN can be seen under "Other PCNs for this vehicle" tab on the bottom of TfL page.

The representation has been submitted online on TfL website.
The wording of my representation were:

Drivers travelling south down Gloucester Place road and wanted to make a right turn to the Marylebone Road facing facing the situation that they are not permitted to do that and they are naturally forced to go straight. Having done so they discover that there is a Congestion Charging zone AND ULEZ zone in front from a very vague vertical road marking (picture attached). There is no clear information on it where the driver should turn to avoid CC and ULEZ zone and its really easy to miss this vague signing.
Once the driver is on Gloucester Place / York Street crossing (another picture) there is nothing she/he can do except either to drive forward down the Gloucester Place or right to York Street, both leading to CC/ULEZ zone. A U-turn in this point would be a dangerous traffic offence.
This place is a money-making trap against the drivers and has nothing to do with wellness and quality of the London air. CC and ULEZ has been introduced with thought of lowering London air pollution encouraging the drivers to take an alternative routes, but this particular place and signing arrangement makes me think that its all about fund raising rather than anything else.
There should be a proper sign clearly informing the drivers about the manoeuvres they should perform not to fall into this trap - CC / ULEZ zone.
The penalty should be cancelled as it serves the wrong purpose.


Rejection answer you can guess: "you stated this and this but hey, its your responsibility to know what we have done, so pay now".

Please let me know if anything else is needed for clarity.
Thanks!

This post has been edited by nee0Waey: Mon, 6 Jan 2020 - 13:52
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hcandersen
post Mon, 6 Jan 2020 - 14:52
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Is this the totality of what you sent? I doubt it.

So, how would whoever read this know that these were limited to and in respect of the CC only? I count 5 references to ULEZ which, in the context of a CC PCN, are irrelevant.

So, what have TfL done? It appears they've taken these reps as being in respect of both PCNs. This would be understandable in the context of the body of the reps but not if, for example, your full submission included stating the PCN number and VRM, albeit in previous website pages and you stated only the CC PCN.

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