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County Court notification help, Private car park fine via Gladstones
Clueless37
post Sun, 26 Jan 2020 - 17:51
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Hello

I have received a County court notice from a fine/parking charge I was given in October 2018. I parked in an area adjacent to a petrol station and apparently that week they had decided to make it a no parking zone however, I never noticed or saw the signage until a few weeks later.
The fine came from UK car park management and as it was private land and I had never heard of them I ignored them as I thought they were parking cowboys, MISTAKE!!

I Think they sent me another reminder which I ignored until November 2019, this time it was from Gladstones but with Christmas in the way and super busy at work I totally forgot about it until last week I received a county court notice. I accept I'm to blame for allowing this situation to get to this stage. However, I don't think it is right I allow them to charge me the £250. If I had seen the sign I would had not parked there. I think this is a way for them to just make extra income. I have just come across this forum which is excellent however, I am feeling a bit overwhelmed with the amount of information available, however, not sure what's the best step for me to take right now.

Having done a bit of research UK Car Park Management aren't members of the British Parking Association but they are members of the International Parking association. Have they still got the right to get my contact details from the DVLA?

Is it too late to remove it from the CCJ stage? If I contact Gladstones directly, can I negotiate to pay a smaller fee? Can someone advice me or give me some tips of what's the best way forward?

Thanks,
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post Sun, 26 Jan 2020 - 17:51
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ostell
post Sun, 26 Jan 2020 - 18:29
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So don't infer the identity of the driver use "the driver......." etc.

Did you throw away the UKPC letters? If not post up, redacted , on here. Leave dates.

If not available SAR to UKPC and letter to Gladstones demanding a copy of all the documents that they intend to use in court in order to narrow the issues betwee you, as expected by the courts. You expect them by return and in any case within 7 days.

Then, hopefully, you can post the NTK.

Also acknowledge the claim using the details and password on the form but nothing in the defence. This gives you 33 days from the date of issue to get your defence to the court.

This post has been edited by ostell: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 - 18:30
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Jlc
post Sun, 26 Jan 2020 - 18:39
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QUOTE (Clueless37 @ Sun, 26 Jan 2020 - 17:51) *
If I had seen the sign I would had not parked there.
I never noticed or saw the signage until a few weeks later.

The test is not whether you saw them but whether they are sufficient. The contract can be formed by conduct (parking).

QUOTE (Clueless37 @ Sun, 26 Jan 2020 - 17:51) *
The fine came from UK car park management and as it was private land and I had never heard of them I ignored them as I thought they were parking cowboys, MISTAKE!!

Yes, many private parking companies should not be ignored. If it's any comfort it wouldn't have made any difference (any appeal would have been rejected) - but they may try and say you were unreasonable by 'ignoring' it.

QUOTE (Clueless37 @ Sun, 26 Jan 2020 - 17:51) *
However, I don't think it is right I allow them to charge me the £250. I think this is a way for them to just make extra income.

Some of that additional amount is part of the claim process (£50 solicitors and £25 claim fee). The additional amount can be challenged - especially if they call it 'initial legal costs'. (They've stopped that recently as courts were throwing out claims as an abuse of process)

QUOTE (Clueless37 @ Sun, 26 Jan 2020 - 17:51) *
Having done a bit of research UK Car Park Management aren't members of the British Parking Association but they are members of the International Parking association. Have they still got the right to get my contact details from the DVLA?

Yes.

QUOTE (Clueless37 @ Sun, 26 Jan 2020 - 17:51) *
Is it too late to remove it from the CCJ stage? If I contact Gladstones directly, can I negotiate to pay a smaller fee? Can someone advice me or give me some tips of what's the best way forward?

You can settle right up to the court room door. But they are unlikely to budge much. You don't have a CCJ (Yet) - it only becomes a problem if you don't pay it promptly after judgment.

You have to play brinkmanship back at them - but be prepared to go to a hearing.

It could be a forbidding sign - do you have pictures?

This post has been edited by Jlc: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 - 18:40


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Clueless37
post Sun, 26 Jan 2020 - 21:47
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QUOTE (ostell @ Sun, 26 Jan 2020 - 18:29) *
So don't infer the identity of the driver use "the driver......." etc.

Did you throw away the UKPC letters? If not post up, redacted , on here. Leave dates.

If not available SAR to UKPC and letter to Gladstones demanding a copy of all the documents that they intend to use in court in order to narrow the issues betwee you, as expected by the courts. You expect them by return and in any case within 7 days.

Then, hopefully, you can post the NTK.

Also acknowledge the claim using the details and password on the form but nothing in the defence. This gives you 33 days from the date of issue to get your defence to the court.


Thanks for your response Ostell.

I don't have any of the letters beside the November letter from Gladstone and the letter from the County Court Business Centre.

When you say to acknowledge the claim you mean by logging to Gladstones website? Will this stop the County Court case or is this separate ?

This happened two years ago, I don't even have the car anymore. It used to be free to park in that place until that week I probably was the first one to get the parking fine. Back then the no parking sign was almost no visible. They have now changed it and has become very visible which makes me think someone else probably used the same argument prior to me.

I wished I had gone back and taken pictures grrr....




QUOTE (Jlc @ Sun, 26 Jan 2020 - 18:39) *
QUOTE (Clueless37 @ Sun, 26 Jan 2020 - 17:51) *
If I had seen the sign I would had not parked there.
I never noticed or saw the signage until a few weeks later.

The test is not whether you saw them but whether they are sufficient. The contract can be formed by conduct (parking).

QUOTE (Clueless37 @ Sun, 26 Jan 2020 - 17:51) *
The fine came from UK car park management and as it was private land and I had never heard of them I ignored them as I thought they were parking cowboys, MISTAKE!!

Yes, many private parking companies should not be ignored. If it's any comfort it wouldn't have made any difference (any appeal would have been rejected) - but they may try and say you were unreasonable by 'ignoring' it.

QUOTE (Clueless37 @ Sun, 26 Jan 2020 - 17:51) *
However, I don't think it is right I allow them to charge me the £250. I think this is a way for them to just make extra income.

Some of that additional amount is part of the claim process (£50 solicitors and £25 claim fee). The additional amount can be challenged - especially if they call it 'initial legal costs'. (They've stopped that recently as courts were throwing out claims as an abuse of process)

QUOTE (Clueless37 @ Sun, 26 Jan 2020 - 17:51) *
Having done a bit of research UK Car Park Management aren't members of the British Parking Association but they are members of the International Parking association. Have they still got the right to get my contact details from the DVLA?

Yes.

QUOTE (Clueless37 @ Sun, 26 Jan 2020 - 17:51) *
Is it too late to remove it from the CCJ stage? If I contact Gladstones directly, can I negotiate to pay a smaller fee? Can someone advice me or give me some tips of what's the best way forward?

You can settle right up to the court room door. But they are unlikely to budge much. You don't have a CCJ (Yet) - it only becomes a problem if you don't pay it promptly after judgment.

You have to play brinkmanship back at them - but be prepared to go to a hearing.

It could be a forbidding sign - do you have pictures?


Thanks Jlc - Unfortunately, I don't have any pictures. This happened two years ago and it used to be a free park there and it was on that week that suddenly it became a no park zone. However, the sign wasn't very visible as it was an item for discussion between few of the parents at the school ground. I am not the only one who probably got fined. I went the other day and I have noticed that the signs have now become very visible which makes me think someone has used that in their defence. Now, will the Court look at this in retrospective ? As now it's not how it used to be....
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ostell
post Sun, 26 Jan 2020 - 22:05
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You follow the instructions on the Northampton form to acknowledge
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 28 Jan 2020 - 14:09
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1) tell us the DATE OF ISSUE
2) Go online to the MCOL website. THe instructions are on the form. Reading legal documetns fully and carefully is something you will need to get in the habit of doing

Follow the guide on:
MSE Forum -> Parking -0> NEWBIES thread -> Post 2 of that thread
3) Confuirm when you have acknowedged the claim
4) Send a SAR to the parking company (google, if you dont know what a SAR is) and requrie ALL data about yourself. Give them some wya to identify - for example, the claim ref number. Do not do this until AFTER you have done 2!
5) Go back to the MSE forums NEWBIES thread post 2 and READ. ALL. OF. IT . I mean READ it. No skimming, no jumping about. Read and understand. It takes you through the COMPLETE process.

6) Once you have acknowledged, you have 33 dasy from date of issue IF you acknoweledged more than 5 days from DATE OF ISSUE to get your defence to the corut. You will NOT be reminded of this deadline. Miss it and you lose.
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Clueless37
post Tue, 28 Jan 2020 - 16:20
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 28 Jan 2020 - 14:09) *
1) tell us the DATE OF ISSUE
2) Go online to the MCOL website. THe instructions are on the form. Reading legal documetns fully and carefully is something you will need to get in the habit of doing

Follow the guide on:
MSE Forum -> Parking -0> NEWBIES thread -> Post 2 of that thread
3) Confuirm when you have acknowedged the claim
4) Send a SAR to the parking company (google, if you dont know what a SAR is) and requrie ALL data about yourself. Give them some wya to identify - for example, the claim ref number. Do not do this until AFTER you have done 2!
5) Go back to the MSE forums NEWBIES thread post 2 and READ. ALL. OF. IT . I mean READ it. No skimming, no jumping about. Read and understand. It takes you through the COMPLETE process.

6) Once you have acknowledged, you have 33 dasy from date of issue IF you acknoweledged more than 5 days from DATE OF ISSUE to get your defence to the corut. You will NOT be reminded of this deadline. Miss it and you lose.


1)The date of issue of the county court claim is 13 Jan 2020

2-6) Many thanks Im onto it .


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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 28 Jan 2020 - 17:33
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OK, so once ack. you will have 33 days frmo 13th january

I mean this - you will *never* be reminded of this date. You MUST NOT lose sight of this deadline. If you fail to file a defence in time, you lose.
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Clueless37
post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 09:18
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 28 Jan 2020 - 17:33) *
OK, so once ack. you will have 33 days frmo 13th january

I mean this - you will *never* be reminded of this date. You MUST NOT lose sight of this deadline. If you fail to file a defence in time, you lose.


I requested the SAR on 2.2.20 which to both UKCPM and Gladstones.

Gladstones responded on the 3.2.20 asking for a reference number which I provided on the same day. Today I have received another reply asking about for information regarding a second address. There was never mention of a second address in the SAR.

Please help as Im not sure why there's such a delay? Thanks
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 11:42
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There is no delay. THey have 30 days to respond> This time has not elapsed.
I have no idea why they are asking about another address. Do you recognise the address?

Have you started writing your defence? The clock is ticking

MSE forum -> NEWBIES thread -. 2nd post. Read it, properly, AND the 16 defences it contains.
You realise, hopefully, that you are NOT going to get the SAR back in time to use the details for a defence, yes? This isnt a problem. You write the defence ANYWAY.
By my reckoning youve got a couple of days left. WHats your deadline?
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Clueless37
post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 14:08
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 11:42) *
There is no delay. THey have 30 days to respond> This time has not elapsed.
I have no idea why they are asking about another address. Do you recognise the address?

Have you started writing your defence? The clock is ticking

MSE forum -> NEWBIES thread -. 2nd post. Read it, properly, AND the 16 defences it contains.
You realise, hopefully, that you are NOT going to get the SAR back in time to use the details for a defence, yes? This isnt a problem. You write the defence ANYWAY.
By my reckoning youve got a couple of days left. WHats your deadline?


Thanks for the reply.

The exact wording of the email says - 'I am in receipt of your Subject Access Request - in this request you mention a second address, can you confirm your current address for service'.

I was under the impression Id have the SAR back to help with putting my defence together but never mind. Ill put it together asap.

The deadline from the letter dated 13th is the 15th February.
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 14:12
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Why did you think that? Not a single thread will EVER tell you that. This is because they have 30 days to respond, and you at BEST have 33 days to file your defence.

So, did you mention a second address? Come on, work out we cant mind read!
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Clueless37
post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 14:39
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 14:12) *
Why did you think that? Not a single thread will EVER tell you that. This is because they have 30 days to respond, and you at BEST have 33 days to file your defence.

So, did you mention a second address? Come on, work out we cant mind read!


Because of this by Ostell "If not available SAR to UKPC and letter to Gladstones demanding a copy of all the documents that they intend to use in court in order to narrow the issues betwee you, as expected by the courts. You expect them by return and in any case within 7 days."

There was never any mention of a second address.
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ostell
post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 15:22
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Little bit of reading should have told you that response time for a SAR is 30 days. The othe comments were about the letter to the solicitor
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 15:43
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Yep, two separate subjects. Reading fail there.
Then you need to obviously repsond back, confirming you are confused why they have mentioned a second address, as your SAR (or whatevr it was you sent...) did not contain a second address. For the avoidance of doubt your address for service is unchanged, and is....
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Clueless37
post Sun, 16 Feb 2020 - 16:43
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HI,
Please find attached a copy of one of the responses from the SARS to Gladstones and UK car park Management Ltd as per your request in previous messages.
Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image

 
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 17 Feb 2020 - 09:36
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Have you finished your defence now?
From rough reckoing your deadline is today.
Get it into the court.
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Clueless37
post Mon, 17 Feb 2020 - 16:57
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Hi, it was done yesterday.
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 19 Feb 2020 - 08:22
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What did you send in?
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Clueless37
post Sun, 23 Feb 2020 - 21:04
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Wed, 19 Feb 2020 - 08:22) *
What did you send in?


1. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to relief in
the sum claimed, or at all.

3. The Claimant has failed to issue a Letter Before Action, or
provided any details of the claim prior to issuing a claim at
court. As such, the Claimant has failed to comply with the
Practice Direction – Pre-Action Conduct and Protocols, para 6 (a)
& ©.

4. The Particulars of Claim state that the Defendant “was the
registered keeper and/or the driver of the vehicle(s)”. These
assertions indicate that the Claimant has failed to identify a
Cause of Action, and is simply offering a menu of choices. As
such, the Claim fails to comply with Civil Procedure Rule 16.4, or
with Civil Practice Direction 16, paras. 7.3 to 7.5. Further, the
particulars of the claim do not meet the requirements of Practice
Direction 16, 7.5 as there is nothing which specifies how the
terms were breached.

5. Due to the sparseness of the particulars, it is unclear as to
what legal basis the claim is brought, whether for breach of
contract, contractual liability, or trespass. However, it is
denied that the Defendant, or any driver of the vehicle, entered
into any contractual agreement with the Claimant, whether express,
implied, or by conduct.

6. Further and in the alternative, it is denied that the
Claimant’s signage sets out the terms in a sufficiently clear
manner which would be capable of binding any reasonable person
reading them. They merely didn't state parking was not permitted
as no signage was displayed and if it was, it would had been in a
font which was too small to be read from a passing vehicle. It is,
therefore, denied that the Claimant's signage is capable of
creating a legally binding contract.

7. The Claimant is put to strict proof that it has sufficient
proprietary interest in the land, or that it has the necessary
authorisation from the landowner to issue parking charge notices,
and to pursue payment by means of litigation.

8. The Notice To Keeper does not specify the period of parking, as
required by the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,
Section 8 (2)(a)&(b) and therefore cannot hold the keeper liable.

9. The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4, at Section
4(5) states that the maximum sum that may be recovered from the
keeper is the charge stated on the Notice to Keeper, in this case
£100. The claim includes an additional £75.50, for which no
calculation or explanation is given, and which appears to be an
attempt at double recovery.

10. In summary, it is the Defendant's position that the claim
discloses no cause of action, is without merit, and has no real
prospect of success. Accordingly, the Court is invited to strike
out the claim of its own initiattive, using its case management
powers pursuant to Civil Procedure Rules 3.4.

I believe the facts contained in this Defence are true.
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