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Parking Ticket near the Bell Centre, Ticket for less than 10 minute stay!
CaptainNick
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 21:32
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Hi All,

Hoping you guys can help as I always endeavour to be law abiding and try to comply with parking restrictions but some times... I'm sure they do it on purpose to catch out the unwary! Just how complicated does it need to be?! Here is a copy of the text I added to the initial appeal online which explains the crux of what happened:

"Dear Sir/Madam,

I was issued this ticket today at the parking area in Melton Town Centre next to the Bell Centre. I have not used this car park before (other than out of hours for free) but was recently informed by a colleague at work that has lived in Melton all his life, that you can park in this car park for 20 mins for free at any time. Previously I have just parked in the street in either the 30 mins or 1hr free bays that are dotted about. Today, I was simply popping into town to buy a birthday card so only needed a few mins and as Clinton’s is in the Bell Centre, it made sense to avail myself of the” free parking” there.

The car park was half-empty so I pulled up into a normal space right next to the parking meter and board and had a quick look at the parking conditions which said something like "Free parking for 20 mins - only in designated green spaces" and then loads of writing about charges per hour etc. I couldn't see any designated green spaces so was unsure what this was referring to. However, less than 20 yards away was the council parking attendant (HD083), so I spoke to him and asked what it meant. He was friendly and helpfully stated "you need to park in the green spaces over by the wall" pointing out the spaces to me. They were on the far side of the car park and I could just see where he was gesturing to. I got into my car and went over and parked in the bay and indeed it had green paint outlining the space. There was a notice in front of the parking bay indicating it was a free space for 20 mins (see attached photo). I left the car and went to buy the birthday card. (See attached receipt).

Upon my return less than 10 minutes later, there was a ticket on my car! The same parking attendant was very close by so I queried it with him. He said “the car did not have a parking ticket on it” and I replied that “it is free for 20 minutes and I have been less than 10”. He took me over to the parking board near a meter and pointed out the small, light orange writing along the lines of you need to get a ticket from the machine for free and display it in your vehicle. This system is completely nonsensical and now explains why the bays are empty! A cynical person, unlike myself, might conclude these illogical systems with hoops to jump through and traps are designed to catch out the unsuspecting motorist! The attendant did say that he did not notice which car was mine when I spoke to him previously, as he knew it was less than 10 mins and would not have ticketed my car. I understand once issued he cannot cancel the ticket so I am appealing to you to realise just how confusing this parking system is and cancel this PCN please.

I would also suggest that a revision is made to your parking policies for this area and indeed the whole of Leicester as it is punitive policies such as these that actively discourages people from going into the town/city. As a born and bred Leicester citizen it is very sad to see the decline in the “high streets” and the lack of all-day free parking is a significant factor. I know of several people that shop online or in supermarkets only and cite the lack of free parking in town as the key issue. See: https://smallbusiness.co.uk/high-street-fre...arking-2539934/ At least ask the people of Leicestershire and ascertain just how much it would help. If business is good then it is good for the council!

Regards, etc."

This is a Google Maps link to the car park, but the signs are now different. Also, a significant chunk of the car park was blocked off as there was building work going on at the public toilets and was just enough room to squeeze the car by the work vehicles: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.7657219,-...3312!8i6656

As I knew the parking attendant was right there, I obviously wasn't going to intentionally contravene any parking requirements and it was immediately after reading the first chunk of the main sign when looking for the green bays that I turned around and saw him. This stopped me from reading all the small print garbage they put on these signs (is a much bigger sign now with loads of info on it compared to the maps image) and I went over to him to check I was doing the right thing. Well that didn't work!

Please let me now if you need to know anything else but I feel really aggrieved about this as it is just a way to tax honest citizens trying to do the right thing!

I am unable to attach my pics of the PCN & letter as it say's max upload size is 13.22k which is a bit small!

Any help or info would be much appreciated, Thanks,

Nick
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post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 21:32
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stamfordman
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 21:36
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Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.

We see a lot of people caught out by these systems but if you think about it they do need a ticket showing when you arrived.

Do you have a pic of the car park terms as this is the crucial thing and if not clear can bolster a plea for discretion but as you've already challenged there's not much you can do for now.
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CaptainNick
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 21:45
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I see now how to post the images using external hosting so I have attached the PCN as 2 pics and the Notice of Rejection of Informal Representation as 3 pics below.

PCN: PCN1 PCN2

NoR: NoR1 Nor2 NoR3
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stamfordman
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 21:53
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Bit of discretion fettering there when they say no grounds while being sympathetic - really after all your explanation this is a solid case for discretion but they want your £25.

Hang fire - someone will probably look up the car park order.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 21:55
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cp8759
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 21:59
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Back of the PCN please. Also show us the photo of the sign that you mention in your representation. That being said, I see no reason not to try discretion again at the NtO stage.

The order is here: https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...-ORDER-2016.pdf

This post has been edited by cp8759: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 22:10


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CaptainNick
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 22:36
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Blimey, thanks for the fast replies!

As requested, the back of the PCN:

PCN Rear: PCNRear1 PCNRear2

The photo I took from the car when I got back in after discovering the ticket which shows why I thought I was ok: SignFromCar

If I wait for the NtO to be issued and then appeal again, won't that mean I lose the option to pay £25 if they reject it again?
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cp8759
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 22:48
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QUOTE (CaptainNick @ Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 22:36) *
If I wait for the NtO to be issued and then appeal again, won't that mean I lose the option to pay £25 if they reject it again?

In practice most councils re-offer the discount, to give you an incentive not to appeal to the tribunal. See what others say but IMO if you saw the sign you photographed, you were entitled to rely on it and you shouldn't have needed to look for other signs.


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CaptainNick
post Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 11:07
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Yes it does all seem a bit unnecessarily convoluted. If you need to get a free ticket for only 20 mins why are there bays painted with green lines? Surely you should be able to park anywhere with a ticket? I didn't have one, but I was in a green bay!

So, I'll pop back an get a photo of the main sign as it is now, just for completion and I guess I'll appeal again when the NtO arrives in the post. As it s a more formal appeal, is there a way I should structure the wording? Do I basically just repeat what happened or maybe specifically refer to them exercising their discretion and my entitlement to rely on the sign visible in front of the car when parked?
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stamfordman
post Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 11:27
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The sign where you parked is misleading but it's a car park sign not an on-street sign and I think others will say the car park terms are the key.

But I would go on with this for the sake of £25 if for nothing else than the ludicrous lack of discretion applied in their rejection.

If you do want to punt the full £50 write a draft in this thread first so we can structure it.
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DancingDad
post Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 11:49
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I think that this is a clear case of relying on a person in authority.
By your admission you were confused on what the terms meant despite reading them.
So you asked a nearby CEO who helpfully directed you to the green bays, advised that they were 20 minutes max but totally failed to say "get a ticket" despite your need for assistance.
The CEo said this is where you can park and you can stay for 20 minutes.
After that the T&Cs or clarity become irrelevant, you relied on what you were told, complied with their instructions.
May have got a PCN that another CEO saw as fully relevant but that does not remove what is a normal exemption.


Will likely come down to credibility at adjudication but if the above is what happened, I would stick with it.
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CaptainNick
post Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 14:53
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Yes, that's it basically. The only difference being I don't think he advised 20 minutes max. I said "I've just read on the sign that the car park is free for 20 minutes but it says something about green spaces?" and he then directed me exactly as in my first post.

It's a whole lot of faff though to sort out what is a misunderstanding of an overly complex system.

I have given up going into town now as it was the final straw! I will get my incidentals from Sainsburys/Tescos and like several of my friends do, just buy most stuff online. I was always a huge advocate of bricks and mortar shopping and face-to-face shopping and still won't use a self-checkout, but the local councils of Nottingham, Leicester, Charnwood and Melton are all actively discouraging people to visit with their traffic/parking policies and road measures.

Mean's I've got to find an new barbers though!
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CaptainNick
post Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 10:29
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For your info:

I went back and took a picture of the main parking sign: Parking Sign
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DancingDad
post Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 10:34
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Don't think that there is any argument on the sign not being clear, even with the free period need for a ticket being in small print.
It comes down to relying on person in authority, not cut and dried but persuasive.
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CaptainNick
post Fri, 1 Mar 2019 - 13:57
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Hi All,

I got the Notice to Owner (NtO) in the post today and I thought you would like to see it:

NtO: NtO1 NtO2 NtO3 NtO4
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cp8759
post Fri, 1 Mar 2019 - 21:07
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No obvious flaws on the NtO.


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stamfordman
post Fri, 1 Mar 2019 - 21:23
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Your formal rep will be to major on relying on a person in authority, as per DD above - i except he'll draft something for you.
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CaptainNick
post Mon, 4 Mar 2019 - 12:31
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Thanks for the quick replies! smile.gif

I'm thinking of making my representations via their website and am wondering if I simply repeat my first appeal or if I need to be more formal or point out specific factors as mentioned such as "relying on a person of authority"?

Do you know if the appeal will be considered by a different person/dept or will it just go to the same people who dismissed my initial appeal?
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DancingDad
post Mon, 4 Mar 2019 - 12:35
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I'll draft something tonight for you.
Should be considered by AN Other.
Usual is that higher levels consider challenges against NTOs.
The process should be even at all levels..... but it isn't.
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CaptainNick
post Tue, 5 Mar 2019 - 09:30
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Wow, thanks DanicngDad, much appreciated! ohmy.gif
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DancingDad
post Wed, 6 Mar 2019 - 00:45
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Haven't forgotten just been busy, will sort out draft for you.
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