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DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 23:21


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QUOTE (turkontour7 @ Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 23:03) *
Really?
I'm intrigued at what you have said.
How on earth do I take this on further?



The next stage is a Notice to Owner.
That provides another chance to challenge, what is known as a formal challenge.
Now we know what they served the PCN for, we can stuff them.
They are not the first council to try this on, they haven't got a leg to stand on.
We know the legislation, the rules that must be obeyed.
And that guidance is not legislation, simply guidance.
If council reject that, you get another chance, an appeal to an independent adjudicator.
They do know the law and will apply it.
Something that councils should do but are often untrained muppets and always have a financial interest in persuading people to pay.
Worst case if you lose at adjudication, £70. But that is not going to happen.

We suspected it before but it would not have been right to challenge with all guns blazing, they may have come back with an issue about display of the badge or whatever.
Now we can prepare the broadside.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462595 · Replies: 27 · Views: 415

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 22:58


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You have not lost an appeal, simply an informal challenge.
What you have gained is the knowledge why they served the PCN and that they rely purely on guidance.
The next stage is a formal challenge and there we can take them to task on this.
It matters not if the CEo noted this on the PCN, it is still not valid.
And TBH would need to be in the Welsh bits cos I can't see it in the English

You cannot lose this one.
But will need to stick with it.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462591 · Replies: 27 · Views: 415

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 22:33


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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 22:24) *
DD has nailed it - go with his words.


I'm biased but prefer my words.
There for you to use.
Or not, its your choice.

Note the first paragraph, first line, the vehicle did not stop due to stationary vehicles
You can put that in bold in your appeal, first thing that the adjudicator will read, first thing that will sink into their comprehension.
And key to the decision.
All else is simply explaining why.
Hopefully in a way that guides the thoughts to the way you want the adjudicator to think.

On the raft of cases to support, I would suggest that you take a copy (2 actually) of the one that Starworshipper linked to in post 28.
Read it, digest it, highlight relevant parts..... like lighting her pipe.
It is as good a dissection of YBJ contraventions as I have seen.
If it seems apt in the hearing, you can ask the adjudicator to look at it as it would seem to support your case.
The second copy is so they get one quickly.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462588 · Replies: 39 · Views: 634

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 21:57


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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 21:05) *
Well they have a couple of templates, one for formal rejections and one for informal rejections, see cells C99 and C100

Don't tell me, they collect all the challenges each week, throw them in the air and see where they land to decide the result.
Richard Gordon explained that system for trainee doctor exam results in the Doctor in the House books.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1462582 · Replies: 10 · Views: 212

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 21:42


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I thnk this is one where I would be fairly assertive and a little blunt with the appeal.
Tell the adjudicator what happened, directly and what you want them to see.

Ground of Contravention Did Not Occur.

The vehicle did not stop due to stationary vehicles.
Without this, despite the authority saying otherwise within the NOR, there is no contravention.
I do not dispute that the vehicle stopped but do dispute the reasoning of the authority within the NOR to continue enforcement.

The vehicle stopped simply because the driver (my mother) stalled while changing lanes to exit the box junction.
The video clearly shows that she had turned and wasn't impeded by any stationary vehicle when she stopped.
The video shows a clear exit that she was aiming for, an exit that was still clear and that eventually she used with no further stops.
The video obviously cannot show a stall as such but there is no other reason to stop as she did, no brake lights at the point of stopping for instance.
I have discussed this with her, she was simply struggling with an unfamiliar vehicle on her second outing in it.
A vehicle with manual gear box and clutch to control when she is used to automatics.
She stalled, panicked a little but restarted the engine and left the box as soon as possible.
I attach a statement from my mother explaining in her own words what happened.
I ask leave for my mother to attend the hearing to be able to speak first hand.
I ask that the adjudicator confirms my understanding that a stop in these circumstances does not satisfy the requirements of the contravention.


My take on it, relatively simple, relies on credibility at the hearing, doesn't gild the lily with extraneous verbiage.
Do bear in mind that she did muck up in entering the box without a clear exit but fortune sometimes smiles and she was presented with an exit that she could use and was safely aiming for. And that all motorists stall occasionally, usually at inopportune moments, I'll bet the adjudicator has.
It doesn't seek to score points or tell the adjudicator the law...though you may need to remind them at the hearing if they seem to be wavering.... politely.
Only add that your mother will attend if she will, a hearing is relatively informal, not like a courtroom as TV shows depict, simply a room with a table and an adjudicator, nothing to be scared of.
But I cannot see you losing if she simply tells the truth.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462581 · Replies: 39 · Views: 634

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 20:52


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Just in case another bump is needed
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462572 · Replies: 23 · Views: 418

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 20:51


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Haven't worked through all and obviously not the 68 pages of submissions mentioned.
I suspect that the adjudicator could dispose of many points without asking TFL for their comments on them so perhaps there is something in there relevant.
Or maybe just ultra cautious and fair to all.
Even if it does not seem that way to you.

To me the big one is the Charge Certificate.
Given that there was a hearing 15th Dec which I have to assume TFL was aware of, there is no lawful way that a CC could be served on 3rd Jan, timing simply does not allow it.
As this is not under TMA2004 there is no Procedural Impropriety ground nor the helpful prescription that an early CC falls full square into the PI ground.
Never the less, it is still a demand for payment that is not due and therefore falls into the ground of Penalty Exceeds the Amount due within the circumstances of the case.
My concern is that this and possibly other solid points to use are being lost in a morass.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462570 · Replies: 23 · Views: 418

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 20:34


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15m away does not sound too great and certainly within guidance.... every 30m IIRC.
But depends on other things as well as distance.
PCN, correspondence and streetview location please
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462568 · Replies: 2 · Views: 34

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 19:01


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@ Neil
I don't mind you being a clever dickie smile.gif
And thanks for correcting my oversight.

@ I-lov-money
Not a hope of getting this back from small claims.
Most you could hope for is the original full penalty amount but as Neil says, there would be very strong arguments that you brought this on yourself by ignoring statutory procedure. And the bit that is often in bold on NTOs, Do Not Pass this On To the Driver.
At the moment it is not even certain that the new owner was aware of the NTO.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462556 · Replies: 19 · Views: 203

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 18:54


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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 17:00) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 13:24) *
Unless has been said, tick box software that churns out automated replies/rejections based on what was put in.

They don't use tick-box software, quite a few councils use Response Master by Barbour Logic, others use Icasework, WSP or Letter Smarti, but East Renfrewshire isn't one of them.



You surprise me if they don't given the reply to you.
Even tick box software requires a measure of input, comprehension and knowledge, if only so the right boxes are ticked and some of the gubbins we often see written can be deciphered.
Settings are available to weight mitigation in line with council policy though I often think that it is like winning the lottery if the Fairy Godmother department wakes up and accepts.
And the output can be checked, dare I say should be checked before sending.
Probably isn't given some of the rejections we see but that is another matter.

Anyway, if East Renfrewshire do not use tick box and do not use trained staff, how do they comply with the duty to act fairly in law??
Which I assume is as much a cornerstone of Scottish law as it is English.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1462554 · Replies: 10 · Views: 212

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 16:51


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QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 15:12) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 15:09) *
2. The type of contravention e.g. parking etc. Because this determines the rest of the procedure...;

Can only be parking.



Given WS and not SD, yup.
I would hazard a guess that it was a TFL code 46 via CCTV but it is a guess.

Whatever it was the OP is now in the frame for best part of 200 notes for want of reading and correctly actioning the notice they had.
AFAIK, there is no lawful means via laid down procedure to escape this even though the original contravention was not you.


Best I got to offer is a written plea to the authority, explaining your errors, very apologetic and ask that they consider even at this late date.
You must name the new owner and provide proof of sale.
No guarantees that the authority will accept, they do not have to. But can if you can persuade them.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462526 · Replies: 19 · Views: 203

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 13:24


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"The process does not require any training...."

WTF?
That is tantamount to employing any oik off the street and expecting them to know what is legal and what isn't.
Unless has been said, tick box software that churns out automated replies/rejections based on what was put in.
Which is used across UK by many authorities and IMO is skirting very close to failing to consider.
If being used by personnel who have no training in parking law, then there can be no consideration.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1462480 · Replies: 10 · Views: 212

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 12:46


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Print it out, stick in envelope, post at post office and get a certificate of posting (not recorded)
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462472 · Replies: 30 · Views: 528

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 10:49


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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 21:11) *
I don't understand the references to whether the exit was clear or not. Such issues only arise if the motorist subsequently stops because a vehicle associated with exit not being clear stops.

But this doesn't apply here.

The motorist stopped because they stalled.

IMO, that's the long and short of matters.



Simply because it is a dynamic situation and one where an adjudicator can and is likely to take all into account.
The clear exit lane and that the vehicle is steering towards it is positive.
Entering without a clear exit lane is negative.
Neither confirm or deny the contravention but build into a story.

Had the vehicle entered a box with clear exits and simply stopped, stalled or deliberate, there is no contravention.
Had there been no exits and the driver stopped, even if it was a stall, with no chance of being able to exit cleanly, there is a contravention.
The driver here is heading for a clear exit having been frustrated by a stationary vehicle.
The stationary vehicle did not cause the stop directly but the stop could be seen as indirectly caused.

Having said that, if the adjudicator accepts that it was a stall during a manoeuvre to exit the box and as such poor driving there is no contravention.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462425 · Replies: 39 · Views: 634

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 10:34


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Don't think that there is any argument on the sign not being clear, even with the free period need for a ticket being in small print.
It comes down to relying on person in authority, not cut and dried but persuasive.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462422 · Replies: 12 · Views: 184

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 10:01


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QUOTE (Starworshipper12 @ Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 21:03) *
You don’t think perhaps the ‘Except in marked bays’ is an exemption for the few disabled marked bays along this road?

Which means anything not labelled (disabled for example) but marked out with a line, is permit holders only?

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 12:22) *
Google street view appears to pre-date the signs.


As in this?

https://www.thurrock.gov.uk/public-notices/...-area-phase-2-0


That is what council believe and probably mean but is not what the sign says or makes clear.
Signs must make the restriction clear to the average driver who is not expected to have any pre-knowledge of the area.


The entry sign says Permit Holders Only past this point.
A fairly common RPZ sign and one where bays or signs are not needed within the zone.
So the common understanding would be to expect to be able to park anywhere in the zone as long as relevant permit displayed.

Then the lower panel says Except in Marked Bays.
Along with the normal that bays are not needed, this is easily understood to mean that a permit is not needed if a bay is marked.
Perhaps the council accept that visitors may need to park and have marked out unspecified bays anyone can use.
It is a fair assumption.

Then we have Marked, not Signed, Except in Marked Bays.
You do not need to be a parking guru to understand that there is a difference.
A marked bay is simply that, pretty white lines.
A signed bay would have a restriction sign telling everyone what the bay is for.
And is the permitted expression, Signed, not Marked.


This is just pee poor signage, not using permitted expressions and open to misinterpretation.

  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462415 · Replies: 25 · Views: 459

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 09:43


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@Mark.
Evidence is all.
And we are struggling to believe that you could/would arrange a sale without something to show arrangements if nothing else.
Txts, emails, ebay listing whatever???
If it was all arranged verbally with no papertrail, even if it was guy down the pub you met, tell us.
This would not damn the exemption it just means that it needs dealing with a different way and ultimately may well come down to telling an adjudicator the whole tale. They may well believe your story if it is credible, won't if it goes of on tangents and isn't coherent.
Tell us the story, tell us how you run your business, how you get sales etc, it all builds a picture that may well succeed.
At the moment we are going around in circles.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462405 · Replies: 41 · Views: 750

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 09:34


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You can certainly mention difficulties with your child as mitigation but it is not a given that any council would accept. And an adjudicator cannot.
Even the most reasonable of councils would likely say it was a known factor that you should have allowed for.

As an aside and no help with this PCN, if your child is disabled with walking difficulties and challenging behavior whereby they cannot be rushed, they may qualify for a Blue Badge.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462403 · Replies: 3 · Views: 90

DancingDad
Posted on: Yesterday, 09:11


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QUOTE (exportman @ Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 21:24) *
Hi

The reason for my question is; I was out riding ( motorcycles) with a group of mates northbound on the M6 exiting at J21 ………..

Fairly normal layout.
Certainly not illegal to undertake in that lane, circumstances could lead a cop to pull someone doing it for dangerous or careless but would not be simply for a sensible undertake in a lane dedicated to those exiting.
As I said earlier I am OCD on not undertaking but treat these sort of exits, signs and markings as permissives and do so if the circumstances warrant.
Extremes are:-
Static/very slow on main motorway, exit clear, I will undertake, not at full speed and with the thought of swoopers/lane changers uppermost.
Main motorway at 60-70, wont bother undertaking, will match speed with a gap to my right (I like escape routes).
Slow lorry/traffic (30-50) in lane one on main carriageway, may-may not undertake, depends on what I feel is right on the day.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1462395 · Replies: 8 · Views: 395

DancingDad
Posted on: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 17:37


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QUOTE (biscuitThief @ Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 17:21) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 17:07) *
I bought a manual car for my son to learn to drive in last year - previously we've had autos only for 15 years or so as my wife only passed her test in an auto. I must confess I stalled the manual quite a lot in the first few weeks of driving it and I'm a very experienced driver. Hiring the odd manual on holidays wasn't enough maintain the skill, clearly.


I really thought I'd made a mistake by switching - hadn't contemplated there being a problem. The driver is 64 years old and has a near flawless driving record of 29 years, 23 of which were spent driving manuals, and yet it was still a big adjustment. And funnily enough, when I first switched to the automatic, I struggled with something similar to 'phantom limb' syndrome for weeks ... kept reaching for the non-existent gear stick and clutch. biggrin.gif We're both alright in the manual now though - phew.



Try having one car in household an auto and one a manual.
I have been known to expect the manual to pull away from a corner in 4th and go to change gear on the auto...…
Usually okay but sometimes the mind wanders.
Do not hit the clutch on an auto BTW, your left foot stamps hard on the brake rolleyes.gif

I would not put the change from auto to manual in any written submission except as an aside perhaps.
When at the hearing can also be dropped in but don't make a big song and dance over it, people stall, simples.

Rebecca shows the reason I have a concern BTW....
QUOTE
I did however conclude there was insufficient evidence to support this particular penalty charge as I could not attribute the reason for stopping as being essentially the presence of stationary vehicles

Which cannot quite be the same in this case as the stall was as a result of trying to avoid stationary vehicles.

I would not add in anything re costs at the moment, adjudicators seem to accept frivolous rejections, even downright incorrect ones without censure.
And some get nadgy if they think someone is too pushy.
Can be asked for after a win so postpone at the moment and see what the decision is.


You speak of the driver as someone else??
Is this your PCN or are you acting on behalf of ??
If the latter, must make this clear in an appeal if you intend to speak at the hearing.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462265 · Replies: 39 · Views: 634

DancingDad
Posted on: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 15:40


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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 12:22) *
Google street view appears to pre-date the signs. Are there any council pics on the council website?

If there's no signs in the bays, I think it's clear cut that the contravention did not occur.


Rats.

But agree with CP
If no signs on the bays, you simply complied with the sign and parked in a marked (but not signed) bay.
Exactly what the sign said to do.

In the opening post you showed two signs.
One the entry sign which it would seem you complied with.
The second one (a repeater) was definitely not in the bay where you parked ??
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462213 · Replies: 25 · Views: 459

DancingDad
Posted on: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 15:30


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QUOTE (DastardlyDick @ Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 15:24) *
………. - what's all this about paying? that's a Red Route Bay, and TfL do not charge for Parking (yet).

Paying the PCN ??


The On any Day isn't IIRC permitted wording, I suspect it has been added to cover up a previous restriction, Mon to Sat for instance.
But I cannot see an adjudicator cancelling the PCN due to that.
That the sign is flat to the wall may be an excuse for stopping but not for parking BTW.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462211 · Replies: 6 · Views: 167

DancingDad
Posted on: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 15:26


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At the moment you are probably safe to assume that you are within the 21 days.
Or you can phone TEC Traffic Enforcement Centre, give them the PCN number and ask when the last day for the SD will be.
On the SD (Form PE3)
Tick the box that says Didn't receive Notice to Owner etc
Fill in your name etc.
Toddle along to local court to get it countersigned and for you to sign it at same time (not before) have some ID with you.
Email the completed form to TEC..... google will give email address or ask TEC. Can't get lost in post that way.
If received early enough, TEC will cancel the OfR, CC and instruct the council accordingly the same day.

Don't miss deadlines or it will get very messy.

The unhelpful council can then send a new PCN and you can decide whether to grab the discount or fight it.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462210 · Replies: 3 · Views: 49

DancingDad
Posted on: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 14:39


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Not quite as cut and dried opinion from here but still agree you should win this one.

You did enter when there was no clear exit.
But an exit became clear before you stopped and it is obvious that you were steering towards that before stopping.
There is also no sign of brake lights at the point of stopping, visible before (while moving across the box) and after the stall so they were working and visible.

So to me all the elements are there to support your story and that you stalled.
Despite what the council say, the offence is not stopping, you have to stop due to stationary vehicles.
You can park up in a yellow box and have a picnic. May be guilty of lots of offences but not the YBJ contravention.

My issue is that you were manoeuvring to avoid a stationary vehicle and this, with low speed caused the stall.
A wayward adjudicator could see that as stopping due to a stationary vehicle.
My argument against that is that poor vehicle control was the reason, not a deliberate act.


Agree with HCA, a short statement for the appeal but I would be planning on a personal hearing so I could talk the adjudicator through the video and politely correct them if they did seem to be thinking as above.
Simply stopped, admittedly through poor driving, but not due to the statutory restriction.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1462188 · Replies: 39 · Views: 634

DancingDad
Posted on: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 14:21


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QUOTE (typefish @ Thu, 14 Feb 2019 - 11:51) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 13 Feb 2019 - 12:57) *
One is a deliberate attempt to avoid detection, the other is simply taking advantage of readily available information, no different to learning where the cameras are on a regular route.
Very difficult to prove any intent to break the law by using a phone or satnav device to show camera location.
A lot simpler when a device is fitted which seems to have the sole purpose of defeating speed cameras.


I'd say using something like Waze to figure out where police activity would be, especially when you know you may be over the drink drive limit, is pretty intentional

Like I said, fine lines of distinction.
May be intentional but proving it is a different matter.
If I use my satnav to navigate through country lanes is it an attempt to avoid the police or is it simply having a quiet and pleasant drive home?
You can see people on motorways speeding past and braking in time with when my satnav says there is a camera.... regular sight on the M6 in the VSL sections.
It is easy to see that they are flouting the speed limit and using onboard kit to brake in time for the cameras.
But proving it is with intent ? Or simply forgetting their speed and hit the brakes cos the gantry sign reminded them of the limit?
That satnavs have POI where cameras are reported or more real time systems like Waze allow someone to speed with a measure of impunity, they also have a function of reminding you what speed limits apply so can be argued they help drivers who may be a little inattentive to stay within the law.
Intent or just an added safety feature?



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