Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

FightBack Forums _ Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices _ red route

Posted by: lou wren Tue, 9 Apr 2019 - 15:18
Post #1477006

Hello

I received a pcn stating contravention code 46. It was on Dry Street in basildon. But there are no Red Lines, No white Lines, In fact no lines of any colour. I could not see any roadside or kerb markings of any description ,There are no signs to indicate parking restrictions. In fact there are no signs of any sort.
Any help would be appreciated.

Thomas

Posted by: stamfordman Tue, 9 Apr 2019 - 15:30
Post #1477012

Post the PCN, council pics and a google street view of location.

Probably a clearway.

Put pics on https://imgbb.com or such like.

Posted by: lou wren Tue, 9 Apr 2019 - 16:36
Post #1477023

hello

image 1 is the view behind where i was parked.
image 2 is roughly where i was parked.
image 3 is the view heading to main road from where i was parked.

https://ibb.co/GP9wWM4 is the pcn.
No council pics pcn on windscreen. just a ticket.

 

Posted by: stamfordman Tue, 9 Apr 2019 - 17:06
Post #1477027

See if any pics are when you log in here:

https://southessex.self-serve.co.uk

Posted by: lou wren Tue, 9 Apr 2019 - 17:24
Post #1477032

https://ibb.co/XpbVqZC
https://ibb.co/J3hYRSV


Yes my vehicle is there.
but the last 2 images of the signs are not where i was parked but further up the road.
the car in the background in image 2 is about where i was parked.
As i came in from the other end i could not have seen them.

Posted by: stamfordman Tue, 9 Apr 2019 - 17:28
Post #1477033

Post the pic of the signs.

Post a live google street view link.

have look along your route for other signs.

Posted by: lou wren Tue, 9 Apr 2019 - 18:15
Post #1477043

these are the 2 signs. the google layout is the 3 images posted earlier.

I never saw any signs in the location where I got the pcn
I was parked on the road and not the pavement or the verge.

Image 1 The small no stopping sign covered by apple blossoms is not where I was parked as the 4 photos of my vehicle show clearly that there are no apple blossoms in view in any of them. so i do not know where that photo was taken.

Image 2 The no stopping sign is at least half a mile further up the road. the car in the background is roughly where i was parked.

 

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Tue, 9 Apr 2019 - 18:37
Post #1477049

Image one does not matter it is a no stopping on verge sign but the no stopping sign is one that does apply to you even half a mile away unless you had past an end of sign

Posted by: lou wren Tue, 9 Apr 2019 - 19:25
Post #1477059

so what you are saying is a sign that i did not pass or will not pass and cannot see is important. I went 3oo-400 hundred yards on the road and parked because there were no signs what so ever.

Posted by: stamfordman Tue, 9 Apr 2019 - 19:34
Post #1477061

Post a live google street view link not a picture.

Posted by: lou wren Tue, 9 Apr 2019 - 20:00
Post #1477067

There is a sign either side of the entrance to frobbing farm close because you enter it from dry street. access to the estate from both ends of Dry Street and both sides have the sign, the placement of the signs is for for the estate entrance, which was on the right as i turned into Dry Street from A176. But they are irrelevant to me as I will not enter the estate. there were no signs on the left hand side as I turned left onto Dry Street and there are no signs at the other end of Dry Street. I went 300-400 hundred yards on the road and parked because there were no signs on that road what so ever left or right side. The only signs were at the estate entrance.


i am not being allowed to put up a live feed.

Posted by: stamfordman Tue, 9 Apr 2019 - 20:04
Post #1477069

here - just follow this to the location. It may be though that it's out of date at the location. In which case if you are sure you did not pass a sign it could help to take some pics.


https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5519258,0.4391686,3a,75y,268.44h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sjmp12pQhRpi2F58t6mBQBw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Djmp12pQhRpi2F58t6mBQBw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D267.48947%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656


guidance on clearways on pages 64-65 here:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/782724/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf

Posted by: lou wren Tue, 9 Apr 2019 - 22:51
Post #1477103

When I turned into Dry Street from A176 I saw no signs. When i have checked back today there are signs on the opposite side of the road where I tuned in but they look like they are for the estate. I would not be looking right when I am turning left. As the estate appears fairly quick, It is quite possible to miss the signs easily. They say start & end which means they start & end for Dry Street or They start & end coming off the estate. Not sure which. You would notice the signs if you were looking for the estate, as I wasn't I never saw them.

There were vehicles already parked so I thought I could as there were no signs to say I couldn't.
when I checked google maps to see what year it was where I had parked it was (august 2018) there were cars parked where I was.

The other turning onto Dry Street at high street is oct 2012. I saw no signs there.
When The road has no more road markings at the junction with dixon road there is no sign to say it start of a clearway. this section is (august 2018)

My phone is calls and texts. That was my only visit. so unlikely I will be back.

Posted by: cp8759 Mon, 15 Apr 2019 - 15:36
Post #1478355

This is a real mess when it comes to signage and I'm not sure whether the A176 is a clearway or not.

forget about the estate, those signs are there to tell you that the estate is not a clearway (and conversely that if you're driving into out of the estate, Dry Street is a clearway).

If you come from the A13, you're told the A176 is not a clearway: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5520447,0.465045,3a,75y,11.88h,83.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scAM26Vd1vkS9v6gMZ_WIvg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

But if you turn left here https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5611919,0.4540168,3a,75y,327.8h,86.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sglzS886eQf5N8GdaLE_QZQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 you're told the A176 is a clearway (the rear of these signs can be seen in the 2018 capture here https://www.google.com/maps/@51.561521,0.4535133,3a,15y,135.58h,89.19t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s2YuVCcG0eJTrhcHhEBYjsQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D2YuVCcG0eJTrhcHhEBYjsQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D266.19794%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656)

At this point you really need to show us:

1) All the CEO's pictures, just redact your number plate if it bothers you
2) Both sides of the PCN in full
3) A link to the exact spot where you were parked.

Posted by: lou wren Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 14:23
Post #1478626

I did not go up as far as Lee Woottons Lane.
I turned off the A13/stanford le hope bypass onto A176 near Bell Hills Road. Came down The A176 turned into Dry Street. I turned into Dry Street by mistake I meant to turn into the hospital.
I saw no signs or road markings other cars were parked there. so I parked and went on my way.
I will Try and load what you asked for.

I am not being allowed to upload the images.

Posted by: cp8759 Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 15:41
Post #1478661

Upload images to an external site like imgur.com or flickr

Posted by: lou wren Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 19:04
Post #1478755

these are the only images of the car. the 2 signs i have already put up.
https://ibb.co/sy8swkG
https://ibb.co/wJfWpG5
https://ibb.co/1bGTMTr
https://ibb.co/n3jP4Sg

Posted by: cp8759 Fri, 19 Apr 2019 - 10:58
Post #1479287

QUOTE (lou wren @ Tue, 16 Apr 2019 - 15:23) *
I turned off the A13/stanford le hope bypass onto A176 near Bell Hills Road. Came down The A176 turned into Dry Street. I turned into Dry Street by mistake I meant to turn into the hospital.

So I take it your turned left here: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5520447,0.465045,3a,75y,11.88h,83.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scAM26Vd1vkS9v6gMZ_WIvg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The only question now is this: Did you pass a clearway sign between this point, and the point where you parked? If yes, then you're banged to rights, if no, then you have a winning appeal.

Ideally, we need up to date photos of the location, but if you're sure you didn't pass a sign, you can challenge anyway (It's for the authority to show the signs are there, it is not for you to prove that they're not).

Posted by: lou wren Sat, 20 Apr 2019 - 01:16
Post #1479437

That is correct I turned left onto the A176 there and then turned left onto Dry Street from the A176.

I saw NO clearway signs from my turning onto the A176. I obviously saw the large sign for the hospital which is how I happened to turn left at Dry Street.

After I had parked, I must have ignored the speed limit sign as it was irrelevant, as I was parked up even then I never saw any parking restriction signs.

It was only after I got the pcn and I had a look on google maps afterwards and saw the clearway signs at the estate entrance and that was the first time I saw any clearway signs but up until then I never saw any.

The only clearway sign is the one in the photograph which shows cars at some distance off. As I was only a couple of hundred yards along Dry Street from a busy road when I Parked. So I have no idea where the clearway sign could be located.

As one of the photographs clearly shows the back of the car and slightly further on other cars either parked or moving. yet the photograph with the clearway sign the cars are at a greater distance away, than in the photograph of my car and the other cars that were on the same street.

Thanks for the help and advice.

Posted by: cp8759 Sat, 20 Apr 2019 - 15:45
Post #1479521

Well this sign: https://ibb.co/J3hYRSV is located approximately here: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5552186,0.4491244,3a,75y,68.2h,92.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skQYzpS3Hq60UPRKBIson_g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656. It's irrelevant to you as you wouldn't have passed it on the route you took. The signs on the estate are equally irrelevant as you didn't drive into (or out of) the estate, so forget about them.

Are you able to go back and check if there's a sign when coming from the A13 / A176 route you actually took? We can draft an appeal for you regardless, but obviously if you can get up to date photos confirming the lack of signs that will make it easier.

Posted by: stamfordman Sat, 20 Apr 2019 - 17:45
Post #1479541

One here on other side of road near junction:

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5570927,0.4586037,3a,37.6y,319.8h,76.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfSMlWE3JOKWrJhd-XXI5XA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

side road before looks to have a sign:

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.556897,0.4591297,3a,75y,188.36h,69.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOoPYUcLl6Hs9odraYP5WpA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

And one way back near A13:

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.556897,0.4591297,3a,75y,188.36h,69.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOoPYUcLl6Hs9odraYP5WpA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


I think one is needed at start of Dry Street.

There are some signs under wraps on GSV that may be clearways on A176.

Posted by: cp8759 Sun, 21 Apr 2019 - 00:33
Post #1479587

stamfordman I think your links 2 & 3 are the same?

I'm not sure we can put too much reliance on GSV as there's been significant roadworks in the area since the last capture. More importantly, these are only repeater signs: either there must be terminal clearway signs at the roundabout with the A143, or the "end of clearway" sign has been turned into a repeater.

I also suspect the signs under wraps are speed limit signs, in light of the temporary 30 mph limit.

Posted by: lou wren Sun, 21 Apr 2019 - 10:19
Post #1479634

There are roadworks in dry street. I do not recall seeing any covered signs.

I never saw any clearway signs going along the A176, with it being a dual carraigeway I would have no reason to look on the other side of the road. I just looked on the side I was driving.

I will not be back that way, I was visiting somebody in the hospital so will not be able to get recent images.

The link posted by CP5789 is the sign that was in the images of the alleged contravention. It is further along the road from where I was parked. I would never have seen it as I had no reason to be up that far. I saw a space and parked. that sign is 1/2 mile further along Dry Street.

I will challenge the pcn. If I had parked on a clearway, then fine I was at fault, but I saw no restrictive parking measures in place for where I was parked or going to that location. So I will challenge on the basis I should be informed of any restrictive parking.

Posted by: cp8759 Sun, 21 Apr 2019 - 13:57
Post #1479668

QUOTE (lou wren @ Sun, 21 Apr 2019 - 11:19) *
I will challenge the pcn. If I had parked on a clearway, then fine I was at fault, but I saw no restrictive parking measures in place for where I was parked or going to that location. So I will challenge on the basis I should be informed of any restrictive parking.

Send this:

-------------

Dear Sir or Madam,

I hereby challenge liability on the basis that the alleged contravention did not occur. The route I took on the day was as follows: I was driving eastbound on the A13 and took the exit towards the A176. The A13 is a clearway, but I saw no clearway signs on the A176 itself. Upon reviewing the images from Google Street View, it is apparent there is an end of clearway sign that I would have passed upon leaving the A13. I saw no clearway signs from when I joined the A176 up to the point where I parked on Dry Street. I am now aware that there are signs clearway further along Dry Street, southwest of the location where I parked, but I would not have passed those signs from the direction I approached. In light of this, the alleged contravention did not occur.

If however you contest the presence of clearway signage, please would you provide photographic evidence of the same.

Posted by: Sophie1 Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 10:54
Post #1479963

Here are up to date photos of the road. There are no clearway sings when you enter or leave the road from the A176




Posted by: lou wren Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 16:13
Post #1480030

Thanks sophie.

I now know I wasn't going mad and I didn't see any clearway signs. That is a big help.

Posted by: cp8759 Wed, 24 Apr 2019 - 19:57
Post #1480369

QUOTE (Sophie1 @ Tue, 23 Apr 2019 - 11:54) *
Here are up to date photos of the road. There are no clearway sings when you enter or leave the road from the A176

This is very helpful but I'm more concerned that there might be a clearway sign when you leave the A13 and turn left onto the A176, or even simply that the "end of clearway" sign here https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5520447,0.465045,3a,75y,11.88h,83.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scAM26Vd1vkS9v6gMZ_WIvg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 might have been removed.

Confirming this is the difference between a case you might win, versus a case you will almost certainly win.

Posted by: stamfordman Wed, 24 Apr 2019 - 20:31
Post #1480373

There's this one - It was what i meant to post earlier - near A13.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5530779,0.464901,3a,52.7y,320.91h,82.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8jNmPYtrl6ioI6kih2SSGw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Posted by: cp8759 Thu, 25 Apr 2019 - 17:45
Post #1480561

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Wed, 24 Apr 2019 - 21:31) *
There's this one - It was what i meant to post earlier - near A13.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5530779,0.464901,3a,52.7y,320.91h,82.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8jNmPYtrl6ioI6kih2SSGw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

looks like a repeater though, and that's if it's still there.

Posted by: lou wren Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 16:12
Post #1480788

It may or may not be there.
My argument then would be if it is on the A176 then that sign would cover the A176 not as many adjacent roads as they please, else they they could say the one there covers all the roads they wish.
That is not a reasonable argument from them, Each road would and should have separate signs to distinguish what restrictions if any for parking, waiting, Etc Etc are in place and if it at various times Etc.
If you claim a driver has broken the law, then you have to abide by the law yourself.

Posted by: cp8759 Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 17:13
Post #1480809

QUOTE (lou wren @ Fri, 26 Apr 2019 - 17:12) *
It may or may not be there.
My argument then would be if it is on the A176 then that sign would cover the A176 not as many adjacent roads as they please, else they they could say the one there covers all the roads they wish.
That is not a reasonable argument from them, Each road would and should have separate signs to distinguish what restrictions if any for parking, waiting, Etc Etc are in place and if it at various times Etc.
If you claim a driver has broken the law, then you have to abide by the law yourself.


A clearway continues until you pass an end of clearway sign, a clearway can clearly extend onto adjacent roads and there is no requirement for signs on each road, or each junction. However, the signs must still provide adequate information to users of the road, as per regulation 18 of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996, and IMO that single repeater would not meet the requirements.

For now let's wait and see what they respond to the initial challenge, if they reject, post up the rejection letter so we can take a look.

Posted by: lou wren Sat, 27 Apr 2019 - 15:59
Post #1480996

Hello

I just read that regulation. You understood that. To me it was complete gibberish. It read like a marx brothers sketch, the party of the first part, complete nonsense. It is one of those regulations that nobody understands or believes but agree life is to short to challenge. Thanks for posting it, I would not have believed it if I was told verbally.

Posted by: lou wren Fri, 17 May 2019 - 22:50
Post #1486000

received my NTO today. Am I challenging on the grounds that the alleged contravention did not occur.

Posted by: cp8759 Sun, 19 May 2019 - 13:16
Post #1486260

Post up the Notice to Owner, redact personal details only. Your challenge will be the same as before but we might expand it a little, and see if there's any errors in the small print on the NtO.

Posted by: lou wren Sun, 19 May 2019 - 23:06
Post #1486420

here are the details of the nto
https://ibb.co/ccpxtFj
https://ibb.co/xzygWW5
https://ibb.co/fCXML7S
https://ibb.co/64Q8h5g
https://ibb.co/74Xd7Hc
https://ibb.co/RhVYsJw

Posted by: cp8759 Mon, 20 May 2019 - 09:14
Post #1486454

Send them this http://bit.ly/2UqVTSF together with the wording below:

--------------------------------------

Dear Sir or Madam,

I hereby challenge liability on the basis that the alleged contravention did not occur. The route I took on the day was as follows: I was driving eastbound on the A13 and took the exit towards the A176. The A13 is a clearway, but I saw no clearway signs on the A176 itself. Upon reviewing the images from Google Street View, it is apparent there is an end of clearway sign that I would have passed upon leaving the A13. I saw no clearway signs from when I joined the A176 up to the point where I parked on Dry Street. I am now aware that there are signs clearway further along Dry Street, southwest of the location where I parked, but I would not have passed those signs from the direction I approached. In light of this, the alleged contravention did not occur. If however you contest the presence of clearway signage, please would you provide photographic evidence of the same.

In any event, there has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the enforcement authority. Page 4 of the PCN asserts, under point 4 of the heading "What happens next", that "Failure to either pay the amount due or lodge an appeal with the Adjudicator, within the prescribed time, will result in a Charge Certificate being issued and the amount due increased by 50 per cent to £105". The council cannot foresee the future and it always has a discretion as to whether it will issue a charge certificate, the council cannot fetter its discretion in this manner. I refer you to paragraph 10 of the recent decision in Ammar Abdul Hadi v Coventry City Council (CV00067-1902, 05 April 2019) where the adjudicator said as follows:

I agree with Mr Hadi that the wording ‘will result in a charge certificate being issued which will increase
the original charge by 50%’ has a meaning which is materially different to ‘a charge certificate may be
served’. Regulation 6 prescribes ‘may be served’, no doubt because:
1. The Council have power to receive and consider late representations under regulation 5(1), in
which case they would not issue a charge certificate;
2. An Adjudicator has power to register a late appeal under regulation 7(1)(b);
3. The Council have a discretion at any stage of the process.


The council's assertion that it "will" issue a charge certificate is a procedural impropriety, in light of this even if the alleged contravention occurred, the penalty charge must nonetheless be cancelled.

Posted by: lou wren Mon, 20 May 2019 - 16:13
Post #1486593

I have appealed online. I have uploaded my appeal using your wording. But I am not being allowed to upload any attachments. So I added an extra paragraph that reads as thus.

As I am not being permitted to to upload text evidence to substantiate my case which includes, The Ammar Abdul Hadi v Coventry City Council Files.
I have to submit the link to that hearing and subsequent ruling of said case, (See Below). It is the last item on the page.

http://bit.ly/2UqVTSF

This is what was on the last page after I appealed.
Thank you for your correspondence. The details of your challenge are below:

PCN Number: xxxxxx
Vehicle Registration Number: xxxxxx
Reference Number: xxxxxx

Please print and keep a copy of these case details for your records.
We will try to respond to your correspondence within 28 days by post or email.

Thanks to cp8759. for the wording of the appeal.

Posted by: lou wren Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 12:27
Post #1504713

Hello

I received a letter today 2/8/19. It was Dated 26/7/2019

Traffic Management Act 2004-Notice of Acceptance of Representations against Notice To Owner.

Penalty Charge Notice Number :XXXXX
Date Served :08 April 2019
Vehicle Registration Number :XXXXX
Contravention Location :Dry Street
Contravention Area :Lee Chapel South

I refer to your representations received on 20 may 2019 in respect of the above penalty charge notice.

Dry Street is a clear way and has a valid traffic regulation order, however there is a one sign missing which Essex County Council failed to replace after carrying out road works, however it is shortly due to be replaced, we have therefore cancelled the penalty charge notice.

Thank you for bringing to our attention the adjudicators recent decision regarding paragraph 10 wording, our documents will be sent out to our legal team to review.

Parking Officer
South Essex Parking Partnership.

I am surprised that they showed some class and admitted they were at fault and stopped once they knew they were wrong and not try and drag it out needlessly, and not pretend they knew it all.

Well That's That. I am glad that is over. Thanks to all who Helped.

Thomas




Posted by: PASTMYBEST Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 12:35
Post #1504714

QUOTE (lou wren @ Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 13:27) *
Hello

I received a letter today 2/8/19. It was Dated 26/7/2019

Traffic Management Act 2004-Notice of Acceptance of Representations against Notice To Owner.

Penalty Charge Notice Number :XXXXX
Date Served :08 April 2019
Vehicle Registration Number :XXXXX
Contravention Location :Dry Street
Contravention Area :Lee Chapel South

I refer to your representations received on 20 may 2019 in respect of the above penalty charge notice.

Dry Street is a clear way and has a valid traffic regulation order, however there is a one sign missing which Essex County Council failed to replace after carrying out road works, however it is shortly due to be replaced, we have therefore cancelled the penalty charge notice.

Thank you for bringing to our attention the adjudicators recent decision regarding paragraph 10 wording, our documents will be sent out to our legal team to review.

Parking Officer
South Essex Parking Partnership.

I am surprised that they showed some class and admitted they were at fault and stopped once they knew they were wrong and not try and drag it out needlessly, and not pretend they knew it all.

Well That's That. I am glad that is over. Thanks to all who Helped.

Thomas


Full kudos to the council not only in admitting the signage was wrong but also in referring their template

Posted by: cp8759 Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 20:09
Post #1504834

Indeed, what a shame other councils cannot be this enlightened.

Posted by: stamfordman Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 20:17
Post #1504838

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 21:09) *
Indeed, what a shame other councils cannot be this enlightened.


And yet this same 'parking partnership' has no compunction about nailing a resident for 20 mins or so before he bought his new permit...

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=129410

Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)