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Disabled Bay - Loading, Loading in a disabled Bay
londontraveller8...
post Thu, 29 Feb 2024 - 13:33
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Hi All,

Need some quick advice as today i believe tomorrow is last day to appeal as I received the PCN on the 16th,I don't really have a leg to stand on other then saying it as it was, I know the council will reect then the question is it worth me taking it further to a independant adjudicator or not.

There literally was no where to park on the road (a known issue in the area and our road) and have a picture showing the entire road as full. THe road is Pay and Display or residents permite and I have a permit, as I had to load a full car only nearest free slot was my neighbours disabled bay, which they have no objection to and I had parked in it for a a short period maybe 10-20. minutes if that as I loaded

As I was loading the warden had given a ticket while I went in to get more items, on my return I had told him that I was loading but he goes its on a disabled, which I appreciate but its not really practicle for me to leave the car in the middle of the road to load and block traffic nor carry dozens of things to the nearest spot on the next road etc..

Common sense would say I assume what I did in the circumstance was the most practicle and least impacting way to load the car, considering there were other disabled bays available it would not impact anyone that came to park in a disable bay but from a legal/technical perspective I parked on a disabled bay with no disabled badge which is a ticjket and a fine.

Please see attached

https://ibb.co/xDf5DwT
https://ibb.co/k4BsSrN
https://ibb.co/nb7jjn9
https://ibb.co/Yc89Bgn
https://ibb.co/LtYQY0h


Await to hear back and thanks in advance!

This post has been edited by londontraveller84: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 - 13:47
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post Thu, 29 Feb 2024 - 13:33
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Enceladus
post Thu, 29 Feb 2024 - 14:11
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The last day to deliver to the Council your informal representations (challenge) is today, if you want to preserve the discount if you get rejected. If that's what you mean by "last day to appeal".

You've redacted so much info that it's impossible to know which council amongst other items.

Please post an unredacted image of both sides of your PCN. And a picture of the sign on the bay, if you have one. When posting images or documents it is only necessary to redact or obscure your name & address where present. Please leave everything else visible especially all PCN numbers, vehicle registration, times, location info and the like. All as per the sticky post of instructions at the top of this sub-forum.

This post has been edited by Enceladus: Thu, 29 Feb 2024 - 14:15
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londontraveller8...
post Thu, 29 Feb 2024 - 18:52
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Apologise, Please find below a full PCN front and back - out of curiosity. whats the benefit of seeing the back, as it's just standard information unless I'm missing something?

https://tinypic.host/image/IMG-8937.DDRbD4
https://tinypic.host/image/IMG-8938.DDR4t2
https://tinypic.host/image/badge.DDRAEU

Correct on what I meant by last day, in that case I'm thinking depending on the replies I get before midnight, i may just have to appeal on the basis that there was no space, so had to park there to load to keep the discounted rate for now, then decide if there is any other valid reason we can add if I was to take to ajudicator.

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Incandescent
post Fri, 1 Mar 2024 - 00:01
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QUOTE (londontraveller84 @ Thu, 29 Feb 2024 - 18:52) *
Apologise, Please find below a full PCN front and back - out of curiosity. whats the benefit of seeing the back, as it's just standard information unless I'm missing something?

https://tinypic.host/image/IMG-8937.DDRbD4
https://tinypic.host/image/IMG-8938.DDR4t2
https://tinypic.host/image/badge.DDRAEU

Correct on what I meant by last day, in that case I'm thinking depending on the replies I get before midnight, i may just have to appeal on the basis that there was no space, so had to park there to load to keep the discounted rate for now, then decide if there is any other valid reason we can add if I was to take to ajudicator.

Over the years this forum has been running, you'd be amazed at the errors we find in PCNs, even in the "small print". The content of a PCN is defined in law, so if they misstate the law or leave info out, the PCN is a nullity. However in your case it looks kosher !

As for the contravention itself, a Traffic Regulation Order is needed to establish the disabled bay. The TRO may give an exemption for loading but you'd have to go and look at it. It is a public document that can be requested on demand at the councl offices. However, they may have scanned them by now, and have then on-line.
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londontraveller8...
post Fri, 1 Mar 2024 - 23:05
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I've responded stating a few points, really needs a human with a heart and logical understnading to accept it lol

1. No Parking anywhere on street, expect 4/5 disabled bays free
2. It wasn't feasible nor practicle for me to load my car with it parked on another road, carrying heavy stuff
3. Asked neighbour whose disabled bay it was, no objection
4. Where 3 other disabled bays, so if someone came they could park
5. Was only parked for a short period to load.

In additon to this I mentioned the other option was to park in the middle of the street and cause a backlog/blockage of traffic and been inconsiderate, so the most viable option was to use the disable bay to load, so based on all these please cancel :/

From googling it suggest you can't load in disabled bay at all, although I think one council allows loading but Newham doesn't seem to be one, or no mention of it, although this document from 2020 on page 50 states there would be a 2 minute observation on a disabled bay, where in my case there was a 0 minute observation? But the warden did say its instant so unless theres been changes to this?

As for the TRO, how would I find this for disabled bays, is it specfic to Newham? I tried searching on google or is it as you said directly from them only.

This post has been edited by londontraveller84: Fri, 1 Mar 2024 - 23:05
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loggy
post Sat, 2 Mar 2024 - 01:13
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Newhams own newhamparkingpolicyprocedures document says 2 min observation, they have failed to follow their own rules. Also london councils own document guidance on loading states to avoid using disabled bays, IE. you can if you can't avoid it. A bit ambiguos to me.

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Neil B
post Sat, 2 Mar 2024 - 09:52
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QUOTE (londontraveller84 @ Sat, 2 Mar 2024 - 00:05) *
3. Asked neighbour whose disabled bay it was, no objection

There a no disabled bays in Newham assigned to an individual.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Sat, 2 Mar 2024 - 10:33
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Sample wording from notice of a similar relevant TMO >>

The general effect of the Newham (East Ham) (Disabled Resident Parking Places) (Special Parking Area) (No ) Order 200 , would be to: (a) designate parking places for use only by persons who are resident within the East Ham Controlled Parking Zone, who meet the current criteria for provision of parking places for disabled persons and who display Disabled Resident Parking Permits on their vehicles. Certain other vehicles may wait in the parking places in certain circumstances, eg, to load or unload goods


You need to ask Newham why the CEO thought you could not load and see what they say.


QUOTE (londontraveller84 @ Sat, 2 Mar 2024 - 00:05) *
As for the TRO, how would I find this for disabled bays, is it specfic to Newham?

You know the location so ask for it.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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loggy
post Sat, 2 Mar 2024 - 18:59
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This will help me also as I use disabled bays for deliveries if they are the only space available to stop.
Luckily I haven't had to contest one yet.

https://publicnoticeportal.uk/notice/traffi...cd9c948288573c3

I do many deliveries in Newham.
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londontraveller8...
post Mon, 1 Apr 2024 - 14:47
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Sorry for the radio silence, was awaiting to heard back from the council, as expected responded with a default reply (see below link), stating they've considered my appeal and the bay is for disabled use only, not giving any consideration to my reasons, so I am looking to take this further for sure based on the fact that the TMO allow loading/unloading, wether i can make them see and accept that was what i was doing is a different story.

I've recieved the TMO for the specifc bay in question, although its much more longer then the newer disabled bays TMO's, which seem to have a similar loading/unloading caveat from what I can tell the clause i'd have to use or applies here is 11.H (see below link)

https://jmp.sh/s/FNCO9ssNyLamNqB99MmM (will expire in 24h apparrently)
https://tinypic.host/image/Screenshot-2024-...15.35.29.Da6Utm
https://tinypic.host/image/Screenshot-2024-...15.40.45.Da6E2v

Let me know what you all think and if its worthy of going to the independant ajudicator or would i not have enough evidence to back the 11.H clause.
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MMV Redux
post Mon, 1 Apr 2024 - 17:36
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https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/download/file/fid/28464

The CEO Handbook indicates that loading is allowed.

Mick
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Incandescent
post Mon, 1 Apr 2024 - 19:14
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QUOTE (londontraveller84 @ Mon, 1 Apr 2024 - 15:47) *
Sorry for the radio silence, was awaiting to heard back from the council, as expected responded with a default reply (see below link), stating they've considered my appeal and the bay is for disabled use only, not giving any consideration to my reasons, so I am looking to take this further for sure based on the fact that the TMO allow loading/unloading, wether i can make them see and accept that was what i was doing is a different story.

I've recieved the TMO for the specifc bay in question, although its much more longer then the newer disabled bays TMO's, which seem to have a similar loading/unloading caveat from what I can tell the clause i'd have to use or applies here is 11.H (see below link)

https://jmp.sh/s/FNCO9ssNyLamNqB99MmM (will expire in 24h apparrently)
https://tinypic.host/image/Screenshot-2024-...15.35.29.Da6Utm
https://tinypic.host/image/Screenshot-2024-...15.40.45.Da6E2v

Let me know what you all think and if its worthy of going to the independant ajudicator or would i not have enough evidence to back the 11.H clause.

Their own Order exempts loading for up to 20 minutes - 11 (1) h. as you have posted in your original post. So they've sent you the usual Bolleaux Fob-Off letter. In my view, the person who wrote that letter should be in jail for malfeasance ! You've been told lies.
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londontraveller8...
post Mon, 1 Apr 2024 - 20:45
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I agree, it's a shame that one can't really argue or raise this with the council to highlight this or such points, so I guess based on that I'm good to go ahead and take it to the full course using 11 (1).h and hopefully have it overturned..
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Incandescent
post Mon, 1 Apr 2024 - 23:19
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QUOTE (londontraveller84 @ Mon, 1 Apr 2024 - 21:45) *
I agree, it's a shame that one can't really argue or raise this with the council to highlight this or such points, so I guess based on that I'm good to go ahead and take it to the full course using 11 (1).h and hopefully have it overturned..

Raise a complaint with the CEO of the council for his staff giving totally incorrect information on letters rejecting representations against a PCN.
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