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Council claims I returned to same bay too soon.
Vizard
post Mon, 6 Mar 2017 - 16:34
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But I didn't.

Warwick Park, Tunbridge wells. I was parked somewhere else entirely at the time my vehicle was first "observed". I may or may not be able to prove that.

However they appear to be claiming I left a space and returned to it, as illustrated by my tyre valve positions, which had moved. I have no idea how they came to this conclusion, but they have. I absolutely did not leave and return to the space.

Ticket Front

Ticket rear

Blurb ref valve positions

Diagram of valve positions

Any advice appreciated please.

I first appealed saying that I hadn't returned to the same bay within too short a time. They replied with a photo of the parking restriction plate Plate

and the following comment:



Dear

Penalty Charge Notice


Thank you for writing to us. We have carefully considered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

There is a sign where you parked which says that, after leaving, you must not return within a certain length of time to the bay, or bays, covered by the sign. You were issued a PCN for returning too soon. Please see the photo below.

The Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) recorded your tyre-valve positions and the time at 09:04; the CEO returned at 11:19, when the period you were allowed to park for had run out, and re-checked your tyre-valve positions, they had changed, meaning that your vehicle had left, but had returned within the four hour restriction.

We have liaised with the Enforcement Supervisor who has investigated your case and is satisfied that your PCN was issued correctly.

You have these choices:
• You can pay the discount charge of £25.00 if your payment reaches us within 14 days of the date of this letter.
• You can pay £50.00 within 28 days of the date your PCN was issued.
• You can formally challenge your PCN by using a Notice to Owner form. The vehicle's owner will automatically receive the form if the PCN has not been paid within 28 days of being issued. The form offers you the chance to formally challenge your PCN or pay the full £50.00. If you decide to formally challenge your PCN, please do not write to us again but wait until the Notice to Owner form arrives.

How to pay
• online at www.tunbridgewells.gov.uk/pcn by following the payment links.
• by phone on 01892 554094 (24 hours) using a debit or credit card.
• by post Please make your cheque or postal order payable to 'Tunbridge Wells Borough Council', write your PCN number (see above) on the back, then send it to Parking Services. Please do not send cash through the post.
• in person at Tunbridge Wells Gateway, where you can pay by card, cheque, cash or postal order.

Yours sincerely



So I replied saying, "presumably take a photo at the start and end of the observation period then, may I see them please?

They replied.

Dear

Penalty Charge Notice


Thank you for writing to us.

We have carefully considered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

Please be advised that we do not take photographs of vehicle tyres. However, the Civil Enforcement Officer has made a note of the valve positions when the vehicle was first observed and then again when they returned to that area. When a vehicle is first observed in a time waiting bay, the vehicle details are entered onto a handheld computer. This would include the valve positions. When the CEO returns to that area after the time waiting period is up, they would again enter the details of the vehicles parked along with the valve positions. If there was a change in the valve positions then the handheld would automatically issue a ticket.

You have these choices:
• You can pay the discount charge of £25.00 if your payment reaches us within 14 days of the date of this letter.
• You can pay £50.00 within 28 days of the date your PCN was issued.
• You can formally challenge your PCN by using a Notice to Owner form. The vehicle's owner will automatically receive the form if the PCN has not been paid within 28 days of being issued. The form offers you the chance to formally challenge your PCN or pay the full £50.00. If you decide to formally challenge your PCN, please do not write to us again but wait until the Notice to Owner form arrives.

How to pay
• online is the fastest method www.tunbridgewells.gov.uk/pcn follow online instructions.
• by phone on 01892 554094 (24 hours) using a debit or credit card, clearly stating your penalty charge notice number and your vehicle registration.
• in person at Tunbridge Wells Gateway, where you can pay by card, cheque, cash or postal order. (Only open 9-5 Monday to Friday, excluding public holidays.)




I said, okay please send me a time stamped record of the valve positions and they replied:

Penalty Charge Notice (parking ticket) number: k

Thank you for writing to us again.

We have carefully reconsidered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

Please see below for details.

The first log is timed at 09:04 the Penalty was not issued until 11:19. The restriction states 'parking 2 hours no return within 4 hours' had you not have left (as our records show) you would have needed to vacate the bay by 11:04 as the maximum period is 2 hours.




Along with the two images I posted.

This post has been edited by Vizard: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 - 17:56
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astralite
post Thu, 16 Mar 2017 - 21:08
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Its a civil matter and the balance of probabilities apply however their allegation is the vehicle was moved and returned to essentially the same parking bay.

It does look (on the basis of their one photo of the sign and your recollection) as if the vehicle was parked in the vicinity of around 22 - 24 Warwick Park. If the vehicle was there at 9.04am (which you dispute) and in the same bay at 11.19am surely it would have been easier to issue an overstay at 11.20am rather than issuing a PCN timed at 11.19am claiming the vehicle had been moved and returned to the same spot ...? I'd have thought it a bit unlikely in that area of TW that you could go away for a short while and return and find you could re-park in the same bay.

I'd press them on the actual allegation and make them try to prove it (but that's me).

I'd go with Hippocrates and PMB re the procedural improprieties and thus the unenforceability of the PCN (they are more knowledgeable than me about these aspects) .

This post has been edited by astralite: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 14:42
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 16 Mar 2017 - 21:22
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Can we see documents not transcripts please, The PCN was defective so to could be other docs


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Vizard
post Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 14:17
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 16 Mar 2017 - 21:22) *
Can we see documents not transcripts please, The PCN was defective so to could be other docs


The documents are all emails. But here goes:

TW/GW

26 January 2017

Dear Mr

Penalty Charge Notice KU71


Thank you for writing to us. We have carefully considered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

There is a sign where you parked which says that, after leaving, you must not return within a certain length of time to the bay, or bays, covered by the sign. You were issued a PCN for returning too soon. Please see the photo below.

The Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) recorded your tyre-valve positions and the time at 09:04; the CEO returned at 11:19, when the period you were allowed to park for had run out, and re-checked your tyre-valve positions, they had changed, meaning that your vehicle had left, but had returned within the four hour restriction.

We have liaised with the Enforcement Supervisor who has investigated your case and is satisfied that your PCN was issued correctly.

You have these choices:
• You can pay the discount charge of £25.00 if your payment reaches us within 14 days of the date of this letter.
• You can pay £50.00 within 28 days of the date your PCN was issued.
• You can formally challenge your PCN by using a Notice to Owner form. The vehicle's owner will automatically receive the form if the PCN has not been paid within 28 days of being issued. The form offers you the chance to formally challenge your PCN or pay the full £50.00. If you decide to formally challenge your PCN, please do not write to us again but wait until the Notice to Owner form arrives.

How to pay
• online at www.tunbridgewells.gov.uk/pcn by following the payment links.
• by phone on 01892 554094 (24 hours) using a debit or credit card.
• by post Please make your cheque or postal order payable to 'Tunbridge Wells Borough Council', write your PCN number (see above) on the back, then send it to Parking Services. Please do not send cash through the post.
• in person at Tunbridge Wells Gateway, where you can pay by card, cheque, cash or postal order.

Yours sincerely



Parking Administration Officer


---------------------------------------
22 February 2017

TWLP


Dear Mr

Penalty Charge Notice


Thank you for writing to us.

We have carefully considered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

Please be advised that we do not take photographs of vehicle tyres. However, the Civil Enforcement Officer has made a note of the valve positions when the vehicle was first observed and then again when they returned to that area. When a vehicle is first observed in a time waiting bay, the vehicle details are entered onto a handheld computer. This would include the valve positions. When the CEO returns to that area after the time waiting period is up, they would again enter the details of the vehicles parked along with the valve positions. If there was a change in the valve positions then the handheld would automatically issue a ticket.

You have these choices:
• You can pay the discount charge of £25.00 if your payment reaches us within 14 days of the date of this letter.
• You can pay £50.00 within 28 days of the date your PCN was issued.
• You can formally challenge your PCN by using a Notice to Owner form. The vehicle's owner will automatically receive the form if the PCN has not been paid within 28 days of being issued. The form offers you the chance to formally challenge your PCN or pay the full £50.00. If you decide to formally challenge your PCN, please do not write to us again but wait until the Notice to Owner form arrives.

How to pay
• online is the fastest method www.tunbridgewells.gov.uk/pcn follow online instructions.
• by phone on 01892 554094 (24 hours) using a debit or credit card, clearly stating your penalty charge notice number and your vehicle registration.
• in person at Tunbridge Wells Gateway, where you can pay by card, cheque, cash or postal order. (Only open 9-5 Monday to Friday, excluding public holidays.)

Yours sincerely



Parking Administration Officer

This e-mail is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Tunbridge Wells Borough Council. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited.

If you have received this e-mail in error please notify Tunbridge Wells Borough Council IT Help Desk on telephone +44 (0)1892 526121 extension
3118 or e-mail to info@tunbridgewells.gov.uk.


------------------------------------------------
03 March 2017


Dear Mr


Penalty Charge Notice (parking ticket) number: 7

Thank you for writing to us again.

We have carefully reconsidered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

Please see below for details.

The first log is timed at 09:04 the Penalty was not issued until 11:19. The restriction states 'parking 2 hours no return within 4 hours' had you not have left (as our records show) you would have needed to vacate the bay by 11:04 as the maximum period is 2 hours.













You have these choices:
• You can pay the discount charge of £25.00 if your payment reaches us within 14 days of the date of this letter.
• You can pay £50.00 within 28 days of the date your PCN was issued.
• You can formally challenge your PCN by using a Notice to Owner form. The vehicle's owner will automatically receive the form if the PCN has not been paid within 28 days of being issued. The form offers you the chance to formally challenge your PCN or pay the full £50.00. If you decide to formally challenge your PCN, please do not write to us again but wait until the Notice to Owner form arrives.

How to pay
• online is the fastest method www.tunbridgewells.gov.uk/pcn follow online instructions.
• by phone on 01892 554094 (24 hours) using a debit or credit card, clearly stating your penalty charge notice number and your vehicle registration.
• in person at Tunbridge Wells Gateway, where you can pay by card or cash. (Only open 9-5 Monday to Friday, excluding public holidays.)

Yours sincerely



Parking Administration Officer
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astralite
post Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 14:52
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Did you check the web site for any more photos?
Did you phone the council to ask them to put the PCN on hold at the discounted rate until they have answered your e-mail, and if any are available, they have provided the docs and given you time to assess them?
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Vizard
post Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 15:42
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QUOTE (astralite @ Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 14:52) *
Did you check the web site for any more photos?
Did you phone the council to ask them to put the PCN on hold at the discounted rate until they have answered your e-mail, and if any are available, they have provided the docs and given you time to assess them?


Yes, there are more photos online. But they are tiny and won't enlarge enough to read the date stamp at the top.

I have tried to call them, but all appeals must be online apparently.

Ah actually I have managed to blow up the snaps in MS Paint.

All the evidential photos are of my car at the time the PCN was issued, none are of the car in the bay at the time the vehicle was first observed (according to them).
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astralite
post Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 15:54
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OK.
Will have to post a little later.
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astralite
post Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 20:50
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The options:

a) pay at the discount today
b) make representations today and if unsuccessful pay then at the discount if offered, or
c) if unsuccessful take the matter to adjudication

Representations – possible approach:

I stayed overnight at the hotel in Warwick Park. I parked my car in the private car park of the church hall immediately next to the hotel. I did not move the car first thing the next morning as intended because the hotel safe in which my keys had been put for safekeeping was faulty and I was unable to retrieve my keys until about 9.50am. At 10am I moved my car to a parking bay on Warwick Road about 150 -200 yards on the right from the hotel. I returned to the car at [xxx time] to find a penalty charge notice timed at 11.19am. This alleges that my car had been parked at 9.04am and had been moved and returned to the same parking place. I have taken note of two documents supplied by the Council apparently relating to the observation of my car and its tyre ‘valve positions’. I wish to make it clear that my car was not parked as alleged at 9.04am and that once I had parked the car at 10am it was not moved until I returned at [time}. I did not need to use the car during that time as I was [at the hotel, attending an appointment locally, dealing with my e-mails, or whatever -[reference anything you might have which supports any aspect of your account from 8am onwards, e.g. I can supply a receipt for …. ]

Please note that I consider that the PCN fails to comply with Regulation 3(2) b (ii ) of ‘The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007’ which states:

(2) A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the General Regulations, include the following information—

(a) that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected; and

(b) that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—

(i) those representations will be considered;

(ii) but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

The word “must” makes it clear that the council cannot omit this statement from the PCN. In doing so they fail to comply with a requirement of the regulations, this is a procedural impropriety.
An adjudicator finding it so MUST cancel the PCN.

It also fails Regulation 8(1)(b)
Penalty charge notices
8.—(1) In these Regulations a “penalty charge notice” means a notice which—
(a) was served in accordance with regulation 9 or 10 in relation to a parking contravention; and
(b) complies with the requirements of the Schedule which apply to it as well as those of regulation 3 of the Representations and Appeals Regulations which so apply.
Therefore, it is not a PCN.

For the reasons given I request that you cancel the PCN.
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Vizard
post Mon, 20 Mar 2017 - 08:42
Post #48


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QUOTE (astralite @ Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 20:50) *
The options:

a) pay at the discount today
b) make representations today and if unsuccessful pay then at the discount if offered, or
c) if unsuccessful take the matter to adjudication

Representations – possible approach:

I stayed overnight at the hotel in Warwick Park. I parked my car in the private car park of the church hall immediately next to the hotel. I did not move the car first thing the next morning as intended because the hotel safe in which my keys had been put for safekeeping was faulty and I was unable to retrieve my keys until about 9.50am. At 10am I moved my car to a parking bay on Warwick Road about 150 -200 yards on the right from the hotel. I returned to the car at [xxx time] to find a penalty charge notice timed at 11.19am. This alleges that my car had been parked at 9.04am and had been moved and returned to the same parking place. I have taken note of two documents supplied by the Council apparently relating to the observation of my car and its tyre ‘valve positions’. I wish to make it clear that my car was not parked as alleged at 9.04am and that once I had parked the car at 10am it was not moved until I returned at [time}. I did not need to use the car during that time as I was [at the hotel, attending an appointment locally, dealing with my e-mails, or whatever -[reference anything you might have which supports any aspect of your account from 8am onwards, e.g. I can supply a receipt for …. ]

Please note that I consider that the PCN fails to comply with Regulation 3(2) b (ii ) of ‘The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007’ which states:

(2) A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the General Regulations, include the following information—

(a) that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected; and

(b) that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—

(i) those representations will be considered;

(ii) but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

The word “must” makes it clear that the council cannot omit this statement from the PCN. In doing so they fail to comply with a requirement of the regulations, this is a procedural impropriety.
An adjudicator finding it so MUST cancel the PCN.

It also fails Regulation 8(1)(b)
Penalty charge notices
8.—(1) In these Regulations a “penalty charge notice” means a notice which—
(a) was served in accordance with regulation 9 or 10 in relation to a parking contravention; and
(b) complies with the requirements of the Schedule which apply to it as well as those of regulation 3 of the Representations and Appeals Regulations which so apply.
Therefore, it is not a PCN.

For the reasons given I request that you cancel the PCN.


Thanks Astralite.

I have obviously missed the discount deadline now, so I will fight on.
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Hippocrates
post Tue, 21 Mar 2017 - 23:02
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QUOTE (Vizard @ Mon, 20 Mar 2017 - 08:42) *
QUOTE (astralite @ Fri, 17 Mar 2017 - 20:50) *
The options:

a) pay at the discount today
b) make representations today and if unsuccessful pay then at the discount if offered, or
c) if unsuccessful take the matter to adjudication

Representations – possible approach:

I stayed overnight at the hotel in Warwick Park. I parked my car in the private car park of the church hall immediately next to the hotel. I did not move the car first thing the next morning as intended because the hotel safe in which my keys had been put for safekeeping was faulty and I was unable to retrieve my keys until about 9.50am. At 10am I moved my car to a parking bay on Warwick Road about 150 -200 yards on the right from the hotel. I returned to the car at [xxx time] to find a penalty charge notice timed at 11.19am. This alleges that my car had been parked at 9.04am and had been moved and returned to the same parking place. I have taken note of two documents supplied by the Council apparently relating to the observation of my car and its tyre ‘valve positions’. I wish to make it clear that my car was not parked as alleged at 9.04am and that once I had parked the car at 10am it was not moved until I returned at [time}. I did not need to use the car during that time as I was [at the hotel, attending an appointment locally, dealing with my e-mails, or whatever -[reference anything you might have which supports any aspect of your account from 8am onwards, e.g. I can supply a receipt for …. ]

Please note that I consider that the PCN fails to comply with Regulation 3(2) b (ii ) of ‘The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007’ which states:

(2) A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the General Regulations, include the following information—

(a) that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected; and

(b) that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—

(i) those representations will be considered;

(ii) but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

The word “must” makes it clear that the council cannot omit this statement from the PCN. In doing so they fail to comply with a requirement of the regulations, this is a procedural impropriety.
An adjudicator finding it so MUST cancel the PCN.

It also fails Regulation 8(1)(b)
Penalty charge notices
8.—(1) In these Regulations a “penalty charge notice” means a notice which—
(a) was served in accordance with regulation 9 or 10 in relation to a parking contravention; and
(b) complies with the requirements of the Schedule which apply to it as well as those of regulation 3 of the Representations and Appeals Regulations which so apply.
Therefore, it is not a PCN.

For the reasons given I request that you cancel the PCN.


Thanks Astralite.

I have obviously missed the discount deadline now, so I will fight on.


Exactly. Let's see what the NtO has in store.


--------------------
There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

Donald Rumsfeld

There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends PATAS, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know.

"Hippocrates"
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Vizard
post Mon, 3 Apr 2017 - 13:12
Post #50


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Joined: 30 Apr 2005
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I've now received this:

Dear Mr


Penalty Charge Notice (parking ticket) number: k


Thank you for writing to us.

We have carefully considered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).

The system only has an image of the valve positions when the PCN is issued. However both are recorded. See notes previously provided. They were first recorded as Front 4 Rear 3 and then Front 5 Rear 8 at the time of issue. All valve positions are recorded kerb side for H&S reasons.

This PCN refers to REG. only.

You have these choices:
• You can pay the discount charge of £25.00 if your payment reaches us within 14 days of the date of this letter.
• You can pay £50.00 within 28 days of the date your PCN was issued.
• You can formally challenge your PCN by using a Notice to Owner form. The vehicle's owner will automatically receive the form if the PCN has not been paid within 28 days of being issued. The form offers you the chance to formally challenge your PCN or pay the full £50.00. If you decide to formally challenge your PCN, please do not write to us again but wait until the Notice to Owner form arrives.

How to pay
• online is the fastest method www.tunbridgewells.gov.uk/pcn follow online instructions.
• by phone on 01892 554094 (24 hours) using a debit or credit card, clearly stating your penalty charge notice number and your vehicle registration.
• in person at Tunbridge Wells Gateway, where you can pay by card or cash. (Only open 9-5 Monday to Friday, excluding public holidays.)

Yours sincerely


Parking Administration Officer
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 3 Apr 2017 - 13:28
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When did you get this.

how can you pay within 28 days of the PCN?


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hcandersen
post Mon, 3 Apr 2017 - 13:32
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The discount's back in play.

It's hard for us to give an answer in this case because I don't think the authority and we are at variance as regards the law (unless you could get them to state in their rejection of reps that the restriction applies zonally, which it doean't) because we only differ on the facts, not the law. .

And the authority take the CEO's account and we see yours. The twain do not meet.

Make reps against the NTO and if unsuccessful go to adjudication to convince the adj on your version of the facts.
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Vizard
post Mon, 15 May 2017 - 12:21
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UPDATE:

In fairness to TWBC, they were very patient and did engage in dialogue. I got the hotel to confirm that my keys were indeed locked in a safe and that seems to have swung it.

Thanks everyone for your input.

15 May 2017


Dear Mr


Penalty Charge Notice (parking ticket) number: k

Thank you for writing to us again.

Although your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) was correctly given, we have cancelled it on this occasion after carefully considering what you say.

Thank you for supplying the information from the hotel.

Yours sincerely

This post has been edited by Vizard: Mon, 15 May 2017 - 12:22
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