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PCN for Private Property at 67-869 High Street (B&M), Tottenham
525-joe
post Sat, 11 Jul 2020 - 22:46
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Hey all,

I received the linked PCN the other day. And I am unable to find anyone with this issue in this particular carpark.

The ANPR images show that the driver of the vehicle entered the carpark at 23:36 and exited the carpark at 00:24 and therefore they are demanding money for "unauthorised parking" for 48 minutes where 0 minutes are permitted.

On this occasion, the driver may not have actually parked in a bay and had broken down and used breakdown assistance to get the car back up and running before exiting the carpark, explaining the length of stay. But I note that entering/exiting the carpark doesn't constitute parking time, but would appreciate other thoughts on this.

I can't see much by way of non-compliance with POFA in the NTK except that they haven't identified rights or whether they have been contracted to issue tickets but I'm sure one of the knowledgeable folk will be able to confirm whether there are any errors in the PCN.

Don't plan to pay, do I have legs to stand on regarding appropriate arguments?

https://ibb.co/rkM98xD
https://ibb.co/hXX4W5h

Thanks in advance

Link to carpark:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.6077348,-...6384!8i8192
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post Sat, 11 Jul 2020 - 22:46
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Jlc
post Sun, 12 Jul 2020 - 07:50
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G24 are not litigious. (But they do have 6 years to start a claim)

But they are likely to reject ANY appeal you make. Because they can.

However, the appeal (as the keeper) should be lodged that the driver that the car was broken down and any alleged contract was frustrated.

Do you have any proof of breakdown assistance?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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ostell
post Sun, 12 Jul 2020 - 08:29
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Did the driver actually go in to the car park?
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mickR
post Sun, 12 Jul 2020 - 09:24
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QUOTE (ostell @ Sun, 12 Jul 2020 - 09:29) *
Did the driver actually go in to the car park?


QUOTE (525-joe @ Sat, 11 Jul 2020 - 23:46) *
The ANPR images show ....... the vehicle entered the carpark at 23:36 and exited the carpark at 00:24

and used breakdown assistance to get the car back up and running before exiting the carpark,


I would say he did
Although getting breakdown assistance in just 48mins is somwhat of a miracle.

This post has been edited by mickR: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 - 09:27
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525-joe
post Sun, 12 Jul 2020 - 18:41
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Yes @ostell the driver did enter the carpark

QUOTE (Jlc @ Sun, 12 Jul 2020 - 08:50) *
However, the appeal (as the keeper) should be lodged that the driver that the car was broken down and any alleged contract was frustrated.


Would it also be worth noting that time entering/exiting does not represent parking time?

QUOTE (Jlc @ Sun, 12 Jul 2020 - 08:50) *
Do you have any proof of breakdown assistance?


Yep breakdown assistance confirmation received at 12:25am so this should be easy to corroborate if required. Although a report wasn't sent as promised by the breakdown company to the driver, this is being chased.

QUOTE (mickR)
Although getting breakdown assistance in just 48mins is somwhat of a miracle


Lol yes the driver was quite surprised as they showed up within 20minutes (first quoted to arrive at 1:06am). I guess that time during the weekday wasn't as busy for them.
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525-joe
post Tue, 21 Jul 2020 - 20:20
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So I appealed with the usual about signs not being clear, no clear contract with landowner, time of entry doesn't constitute parking, and car broken down so frustrated contract.


As expected, they did not accept. What would you advise I do in this situation?


Their response to my appeal:

There are sufficient signs at the entrance to and in prominent locations throughout the car park displaying the terms and conditions. Your are welcome to revisit the site to view the signage, we advise you to adhere to the terms and conditions of parking when visit the site.
Our signage complies with the International Parking Community's Approved Operator Scheme.

The nature of our contract with our client is confidential but will be supplied during any Court proceedings.

You received a parking charge because the driver breached the terms and conditions of parking - and is therefore liable to pay the amount of a parking charge stated on our signage. We also refer you to Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act, which sets out the legal basis upon which we may demand payment from the vehicle’s registered keeper if the driver fails to pay us the parking charge.

We were not notified that your vehicle was authorised to park on the day in question.

Please provide documentation to support your appeal.

We have taken into account your appeal and requested additional information from you to investigate further. Your appeal will only be re-considered if you provide this information within 14 days, otherwise no further investigation will be undertaken.

You now have one of the following options available to you:

1. Pay the outstanding Parking Charge. Payment of your Contractual Parking Charge Notice can be made via the payment line: 0333 733 3000 or by sending a cheque or postal order to G24 Limited, PO Box 3320, Gerrards Cross, Buckinghamshire, SL9 8WT.

2. If you believe this decision is incorrect, you are entitled to appeal to The Independent Appeals Service (www.theIAS.org), The Independent Appeals Service provides an Alternative Dispute Resolution scheme for disputes of this type. As you have complied with our internal appeals procedure you may use, and we will engage with, the The Independent Appeals Service Standard Appeals Service providing you lodge an appeal to them within 21 days of your first rejection.

3. If you choose to do nothing, we will seek to recover the monies owed to us via our debt recovery procedures and may proceed with Court action against you.

Customer Services
G24 Ltd


This post has been edited by 525-joe: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 - 20:20
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Lynnzer
post Sun, 26 Jul 2020 - 14:45
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It's well known that an appeal to the IAS will almost certainly fail.
I sometimes deliberately get a ticket so I can appeal to them (wind them up) BUT I know what I'm doing and have full photographic evidence to support my claim.
I have never lost an appeal but most people will. The problem is that if you lose and the case does go to court they will hang out the rejected IAS appeal as evidence to support their case.
I'd suggest getting the confirmation of your breakdown and make a further appeal directly to G24. At this stage it's better doing it that way so you can build up a case of unreasonable conduct if they do decide to take court action.
Also just for sake of clarity take a picture of the sign. I believe that as it says customers Only it cannot set a contract with you. That is, if the park is for customers only, and you aren't (or wasn't at the time) a customer then any charge can only be made against that customer who breaches any stated condition of parking. Will need to see a close up of the sign though.

G24 was one of my favourites to wind up. I even sent them a Mickey Mouse cheque once. They never took court action but I don't know what the situation is like with them now.


--------------------
The Asda shopping trolley parking ticket enthusiast
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525-joe
post Mon, 3 Aug 2020 - 11:00
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QUOTE (Lynnzer @ Sun, 26 Jul 2020 - 15:45) *
It's well known that an appeal to the IAS will almost certainly fail.
I sometimes deliberately get a ticket so I can appeal to them (wind them up) BUT I know what I'm doing and have full photographic evidence to support my claim.
I have never lost an appeal but most people will. The problem is that if you lose and the case does go to court they will hang out the rejected IAS appeal as evidence to support their case.
I'd suggest getting the confirmation of your breakdown and make a further appeal directly to G24. At this stage it's better doing it that way so you can build up a case of unreasonable conduct if they do decide to take court action.
Also just for sake of clarity take a picture of the sign. I believe that as it says customers Only it cannot set a contract with you. That is, if the park is for customers only, and you aren't (or wasn't at the time) a customer then any charge can only be made against that customer who breaches any stated condition of parking. Will need to see a close up of the sign though.

G24 was one of my favourites to wind up. I even sent them a Mickey Mouse cheque once. They never took court action but I don't know what the situation is like with them now.


Thanks bud. Thought I'll provide an update;

I got the breakdown report and I wrote back to them with the report attached and the image below to show:

1 - Car was broken down so contract frustrated
2 - Images don't show parking so can't have breached "parking" restrictions
3 - Signs are unclear, unlit and obscured by a tree (https://ibb.co/ZGxY4Cd)

I mentioned that I now expect them to cancel this and confirm it in writing. They wrote back to me pretty quick:

"Further to your dispute regarding the above Contractual Parking Charge Notice, we would like to confirm that this has been waived.

No further action is required by you."


Onwards and upwards..
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The Rookie
post Mon, 3 Aug 2020 - 11:05
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Good result, well done.

Strange to see common sense in this industry, but it does happen.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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