Hi thanks for reading and please advise me if you could.
In June 2018, I was on a trip in Wales and was, unbeknownst to me, caught doing 40mph on a 30mph road. I live in a flat above a closed down office and received no letters at all. In December (now), I was in the process of moving to a new house so decided to update my driving license address. It would come up with an error repeatedly which was weird. I tried over a couple of days. So one day I decided to ask the DVLA why it won't let me change my address. Before ringing them I quickly checked my license details online using their website and saw that I have 6 points under MS90 and my license has been revoked in November under the New Drivers Act (I passed in May 2017). This of course shocked me so I rang everyone possible, and here are the responses I got. The DVLA said to ring my local magistrate and do a Stat Dec which is booked on the Friday 11th of Jan 2019. I got access to the closed offices beneath my flat and found a whole heap of letters including the NIP and letters from the DVLA. Now, here's the weird bit. My flats address is (not mentioned the real number so will use 123) 123A Something Road. Now half of the letters were addressed to 123 Something Road and some to my flat 123A. I rang the Welsh police force who issued the NIP and they said my address on log book and insurance was down as 123 Something Road, which I hadn't realised at all. However, my license address with the DVLA is 123A. I was completely unaware and thought there must be a problem. I had previously not received council tax letters to my flat either. Every letter, regardless of whether it's being addressed to 123 or 123A ends up in the closed down office. It was impossible for me to receive any letters as the post service has the top flat and bottom office down as 123 Something Road and they're giving me written confirmation of this soon. This may be why my insurance and log book has the wrong address. Anyway, I have to do a Stat Dec on the 11th and have read topics on here but I'm really unsure about the process and whether I'll be allowed to drive my car soon after it as I need it to travel to university. If you could answer the following questions it'll be really helpful.
1. What should I plead in regards to speeding and the failure to provide information.
2. How long after I submit the Stat Dec does the endorsement get removed and I can start driving?
3. What's the likelihood they'll drop the MS90 on the day if I do a plea bargain, and also how likely is it that I'll be allowed to bargain. Or who do I bargain with?
4. Do I need to take evidence with me to the magistrates for my Stat Dec?
5. If they set a new court date in Wales, will I need a solicitor to go with me or is it possible to fight this on my own? Would the letter from Royal Mail admitting no letters were being sent to my actual flat be enough to squash the MS90?
What's the address on the V5C for the vehicle you drive? The address on your licence is irrelevant as you don't have your driving licence number on display on the back of your car, you have you car's number plate instead.
1. What should I plead in regards to speeding and the failure to provide information.
Not Guilty to both
2. How long after I submit the Stat Dec does the endorsement get removed and I can start driving?
Don't know
3. What's the likelihood they'll drop the MS90 on the day if I do a plea bargain, and also how likely is it that I'll be allowed to bargain. Or who do I bargain with?
You do the deal with the prosecutor. Refusal is almost unknown
4. Do I need to take evidence with me to the magistrates for my Stat Dec?
Don't think so
5. If they set a new court date in Wales, will I need a solicitor to go with me or is it possible to fight this on my own?
Would the letter from Royal Mail admitting no letters were being sent to my actual flat be enough to squash the MS90?
Solicitors are never necessary unless you're a celebrity and want to find a loophole or avoid answering questions
Can't see that the Royal Mail letter will help if the address on the registration document was wrong and letters were delivered correctly
So just to be clear, on the day of the stat dec would it be possible for me to speak to the prosecutor and propose they drop the MS90 in favour of me pleading guilty for speeding? Or is that a matter for once the case is set to reopen on another date?
If I understand correctly your V5C for the vehicle has the wrong address, 123 Something Road instead of 123A, and the NIP was duly delivered to the wrong address, so you did not receive it. You have failed to correct the error on the V5C.
In these circumstances it seems to me difficult to defend the s.172, and your best option is to attempt to do the deal you have read about on here. However that depends, usually, on you also being charged with the speeding. You do not mention the speeding, were you charged with that as well as the s.172, which would be usual? You should not have been convicted of that as there was no evidence available to the court that your were driving.
Assuming you were originally charged with both offences, immediately after the stat dec is made (for which you need no evidence) you will be asked how you plead to the two charges. Indicate not guilty to both. Sometimes the court will proceed immediately to hear the case, more usually another date is set. Assuming that happens, the procedure is as follows:
Attend court on the date set, as there is no evidence as to who was driving your car, since you have not told them, there can be no conviction for the speeding unless you plead guilty. Get to court early and ask one of the ushers (people scurrying about with clipboards and possibly gowns getting things organised) to point out to you the prosecutor who will be dealing with traffic matters. Say to him/her that you will plead guilty to the speeding if they will drop the s.172. We have never heard of prosecutors refusing to do this, they prefer to get a conviction for the underlying offence, and regard the two offences as effectively alternative offences. If you do not manage to speak to the prosecutor beforehand, you should still be able to do the deal in the courtroom. It is very difficult to do this in advance of the court hearing as you would have trouble speaking to the right person.
If you had received the NIP you could have nominated yourself as the driver and would then have received the offer of a fixed penalty*. The normal sentencing for speeding in court would be rather more severe than this, so you would have been disadvantaged. Therefore you should point this out to the court and request to be sentenced at the fixed penalty level, which is a guideline for magistrates' courts in these circumstances. The actual wording of the guideline is:
Where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances
*For that speed you would have received the offer of a course, but this is not something that the court can now offer you.
The lesson to draw from this is that the mass of bureaucratic detail involved in running a car needs to be complied with completely. Had you got your correct address put on the V5C and the Royal Mail still delivered the NIP to the office below, you could have defended the s.172 charge and the speeding charge would be out of time, leaving you clear of any points or fine.
Thanks everyone for offering advice I just thought I'd clear up some issues. The reason I'm arguing that it'd be unreasonable for me to receive and reply to the letters is I just moved into the flat which is my sister's in September 2017. Most of my bank letters etc are still addressed to my old home which is where most of my mail goes as I plan to move back there. Of course I had to change my license and driving documents to 123A something Road because that's where I live. So I couldn't have notice the lack of post because I didn't expect anything to be posted. I spoke to a solicitor who advised to plead guilty to Failure to Furnish but request a hearing for sentencing where a solicitor would contact the cps and at the hearing argue that although it wasn't the polices fault as they sent the letters to the address on their records, I still couldn't have received them and the court may take leniency and not give 6 points but rather a week ban or something similar. Is this a smart route to take?
Its a very smart route to take if you want to end up with the MS90 conviction! The advice you have been given here is correct, and your solicitor is incorrect.
I wouldn’t say the solicitor was ‘incorrect’ as it might work (or it might not) but I’d prefer my chances on the plea bargain.
I wasn't aware of the lack of post issue until I found out I had an MS90 endorsement as I wasn't expecting to receive any post. Also, what exactly is the process on the day. Do I have to prepare a declaration or do i write one when I'm there? Another solicitor advised me to speak to the legal adviser in front of the magistrate and simply explain the whole situation as a lot of unnecessary stress because of a post mix up and that if I knew about the speeding ticket I'd have easily gone on the course or paid the fine so I'm requesting I be given the chance to do that. Is this likely to resolve the matter? Because pleading not guilty means a trial and I can't really afford a solicitor I'm a student in university. Do I ask the magistrate to drop the MS90 in favour of guilty for speeding if I can't talk to the prosecutor beforehand?
Take a look through some of the recent threads on this ... there have been some good explanations from people who have been through this process and taken the time to post back their experiences.
The stat dec is just that, a declaration sworn on oath that you had no knowledge of the prosecution that you faced. You will need to swear in court (to either a bench of 3 magistrates of the district judge) that this is the case. They shouldn't really discuss the matter of the allegation, but often do to expedite the matter - you would plead not guilty etc as per the advice above.
Quick update. Did the stat Dec. Court automatically offered to drop ms90 for a guilty plea in speeding without even asking why I wasn't able to reply. £40 fine, £85 court costs and £30 victim surcharge and 3 points.
Hi I'd appreciate some advice on this matter. I was flashed by a camera speeding on 25/06/18. Due to the police posting letters to the wrong house, I was given an MS90 and appeared in court today for a statutory declaration and had the MS90 and 6 points wiped off in return for 3 points and a 40 pound fine. I believe for SP30. I'm trying to inform my insurer and they're asking for the date of offence. Does this mean the date I was speeding or today in January when I was given the 3 points. I started my policy with them in September 2018 and if I have to say I got a SP30 in June then they'll charge me an extra 1300 in insurance. But would this not be false as the speeding was in June but i received no points until January 2019 and also the court wiped out all the MS90 and points, at the time of insuring the car in September 2018 I had no points and no conviction. Please help or ask a question if you need clarification
Hi I'd appreciate some advice on this matter. I was flashed by a camera speeding on 25/06/18. Due to the police posting letters to the wrong house, I was given an MS90 and appeared in court today for a statutory declaration and had the MS90 and 6 points wiped off in return for 3 points and a 40 pound fine. I believe for SP30. I'm trying to inform my insurer and they're asking for the date of offence. Does this mean the date I was speeding or today in January when I was given the 3 points. I started my policy with them in September 2018 and if I have to say I got a SP30 in June then they'll charge me an extra 1300 in insurance. But would this not be false as the speeding was in June but i received no points until January 2019 and also the court wiped out all the MS90 and points, at the time of insuring the car in September 2018 I had no points and no conviction. Please help or ask a question if you need clarification
Linked to this case?:
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=125184&hl=
Phone the insurance comopany and ask them?
That’s a rather weird financial set, but a result none the less!
Would you know which date id have to tell my insurer. Today as in the date I was convicted or June the date of speeding
If they ask for the date of offence then it's 25/06/18.
Or if they want the date of conviction then it's today.
Damn. I informed my insurance today and they said as the offence was in June and my policy was taken out in September, its going to increase my premium by £1300. I already paid £2300 for insurance. I think I'm going to have to cancel the policy I won't be extorted for something that was out of my control. I tried explaining that I didn't have the points when I signed up for insurance with them and that I just got them today but they said they're counting it as me having SP30 from the date of the offence.
Did you provide your driving licence number to them when taking out the policy?
That much for one SP30 is outrageous, it’s clearly a rip off, do a dummy quote on a comparison site with a made up name at the house next door and using a reg number for a near identical car (find one on autotrader) and see how much they should be charging.....
The significance - well it might not be anything. And I am unsure of the timeline and whether your insurers are trying to backdate the charge and also what your insurer contractual requirement for disclosure is.
But, by giving you licence number they may be a thin argument that their due diligence meant they should have verified the veracity of the information given from your driving record.
That may may possibly give ground for formal complaint and escalation to the FCA.
I wasn't suggesting it is Ok to mislead. Merely that failing to disclose an unknown conviction may well not be negligent.
Sorry I'll clear up some of the timeline. In June 2018 I was flashed by a camera. Took out insurance in September 2018. In November 2018 I was given 6 points and my license revoked without me knowing. In December 2018 I found out about the whole scenario and in January 2019 the 6 points were removed as i had no knowledge of the speeding and I was given 3 points instead. Now when informing my insurance, they said what was the date of the offence, to which I replied the speeding ticket was issued in June but all charges in relation to it were wiped and I've just been convicted of SP30 offence. They're saying if the 'date of offence' is June, I am liable to pay £1300 more, but if the date of offence is January it occured after I started my policy so they can't demand more money but they'll increase renewal price. My point is that at the time of insuring in September, my license was completely clean. 0 points. Now I have 3 after taking out insurance but they're trying to backdate the whole scenario. The official answer I suppose I will get when the courts update the DVLA and they update my online license and the date of offence will be displayed there. I believe the date of offence for a minor thing like SP30 starts from the day of the speeding whereas serious things like drink driving are from date of conviction so I'm going to have to tell insurers the date of offence is June and they'll try to get 1300 out of me, to which I'm going to respond by cancelling
Your insurers need to be clearer on their terminology as to what they require.
date of offence - this being the date of the incident. Back in June in yoir case.
date of conviction - this being the date you were convicted (January).
Your insurers need to be clear which is relevant to them (they must know).
I personally have never had an insurer interested in offence date only the date of conviction.
Edit: fwiw CompareTheMarket quite specifically request conviction dates.
In other words, when you took out your insurance you had no convictions and were not aware of any pending convictions.
I think you are right, but shop around before cancelling the policy.
I was on the phone to them for ages and they really didn't have a clue the guy just kept repeating I want the date of the offence. Call centre wasn't UK based not sure he even knows what a conviction date is. They were just reading off a screen that said Date of offence. They will take my word for it if I say January but if I have an accident and they dig around they might say I gave them the wrong date and cancel me/not pay out. I'm not trying to defraud them or anything but I just think it's ridiculous they can use semantics to get money out of me. I've shopped around and there's nothing under 6 thousand pounds. Unfortunately, thats the end of cars for me. Going to do the CBT and buy a bike. Much better on insurance. Thanks for your help guys its kept me semi sane through all this. If you have any advice on whether I can get around this insurance problem I'd appreciate it.
And what I've noticed is the insurance companies will use every way to stick it to the customer. When getting a new policy, places like compare the market and most insurers will ask for date of conviction because it's always the later date and there's a chance the offence date has expired but you're still within 5 years of the conviction date and have to declare = money. But when it comes to something like my situation they want offence date so they can try to scam money out of people.
You may get a better deal through a broker, try https://www.adrianflux.co.uk/young-drivers/?utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&utm_campaign=young_driver&utm_content=respsearch&gclid=CjwKCAiA4OvhBRAjEiwAU2FoJW4StPkDGLe8B6Ot-Q2QtiF0CdLGIy4Mi3B8bsjA2FJYyUfyzOCOORoCUqwQAvD_BwE
At the time you took out the policy your information was correct, you had no convictions and were not aware of any. It’s the same situation as if you had been stopped the day after you took out the policy, or received the NIP the day after for an offence that occurred before, the risk they assessed at that time was correct.
I’d be submitting a formal complaint and asking they suspend the extra demand until it’s heard.
On what basis are they demanding that you pay them now, rather that at renewal? Non-disclosure? AFAIK, you did not have anything to disclose, but the industry term for this seems to be "innocent non-disclosure" of a material fact. It would be unwise to force the insurer into cancelling your policy, as that ("Have you ever had a policy of insurance cancelled?") is something you will be asked about every time you apply for insurance in the future. But you can ask them to clarify the basis for their demand and go from there.
My understanding is that the Financial Ombudsman Service (FAS), the insurance industry's regulator, views innocent non-disclosure in this way:
I'm definately going to keep trying and try to speak to someone higher up who can give me a straight answer but their terms aren't 'punishing' me for non disclosure as I told them I just got the points the day I rang them. They're saying as the offence occured (speeding) before you were insured, we would've calculated your premiums differently so here's a £1300 increase for you. I tried explaining every which way that i received these points while in my insurance year not before. I rang back a couple of times to confirm but they were just reading off there screen which says what's the 'date of offence' and then it calculated a higher premium. I will definitely begin the process of a formal internal complaint but where does this put my insurance in the mean time while they spend 6 weeks ignoring it? Should I continue to drive knowing that they're going to want £1300 if I ever want it to be legitimate in their eyes?
On the insurance proposal form for the company in question and within the policy what exactly is:-
- the question asked related to convictions
- the description related to notification of convictions in the policy
If you were with my insurer (and yours is likely to be similar) then mine says under notify immediately:-
"Motoring convictions (driving licence endorsements, fixed penalties or pending prosecutions for any motoring offences) for any of the people insured, or to be insured."
It also says:-
"When you inform us of a change, we will tell you if this affects your policy, for example whether we are able to accept the change and if so, whether the change will result in revised terms and/or premium being applied to your policy."
This would, in my view, give them the right to demand to know when it happened and adjust the premiums in any way they saw fit.
This is the position you find your self in. The inherent problem is that this gives them carte blanche to do whatever they want and may fall foul of unfair contract terms legislation if the policyholder were forced to accept it.
However my insurer would not force acceptance. I would be under the normal cancellation rights:-
"Or, if you wish to cancel and the insurance cover has already started, you will be entitled to a refund of the premium paid, less a proportionate deduction for the time for which you have been covered. There will also be an additional charge as shown in your schedule of £25.00 if you cancel within the first 14 days (plus Insurance Premium Tax, where applicable) to cover the administrative cost of providing the policy."
Your only option may be to cancel and insure elsewhere. You do not want them to cancel. That can have very unfriendly insurance consequences going fowards.
It is unfortunate in the extreme that the consequences of non delivery of mail are so harsh since you may well have been eligible for a course (generally has much less insurance impact).
It seems that you have not been disadvantaged by the undeclared (but unknown) temporary conviction. You do need to be sure that the revised premium is based solely upon 3pts and a single SP30 rather than any inclusion of the now defunct MS90.
A complaint about the level of premium is unlikely to be fruitful. Ultimately the insurer can asess risk however they want.
They do, however, have a duty to treat fairly. Thus your premium ought to be reasonably similar for a similar new business case. This is obviously difficult to ascertain but a dummy quote with same vehicle and conviction date for a policy starting shortly may yield a reasonable indication.
The MS90 has been removed and the MS30 with a 40 pound fine is all that's left on my license. The DVLA say the date of offence is June so my insurer will want the increased premium. When I rang them I said I'm not even sure if what the conviction code (SP30) is or what the court regard the date of offence is so got them to recalculate based on a presumed SP30 dated June which I now know is the case. As they've said they noted I called to update them about the conviction and will wait until I receive all the paperwork from the courts, would it be best to just ring and cancel my policy before they demand the money. Or when telling them yes it is dated June and when they recalculate premiums can I just say I'd rather not and cancel that way? The insurer is Admiral by the way.
I think you need to escalate.
Admirals policy wordings are available on their website.
They require to be notified of revocation or disqualification immediately.
They require to be notified of convictions at renewal.
Of course your policy may have other requirements.
See page 6.
https://www.admiral.com/existing-customers/policy-documents.php
It seems to me that you have fulfilled this requirement. There doesn't appear to be any mention of them giving themselves the right to recalculate mid year, but I have not read it all nor seen your documentation.
As churchmouse said start the process of complaint now. Getting a policy cancelled on you by an insurer is a problem. It seems to me that their attempt to backdate is probably wrong. You appear to have declared accurately at the required time.
Even in September at inception there was no conviction to declare, the one in your absence had not happened. (Their point may be that had the documents relating to that not gone astray the conviction might have happened prior to September but the courts have accepted your statutory declaration and expunged that).
I agree with Slapdash on the above.
Please also note that a voluntary cancellation will probably cost you a lot more than you think. I recently went through an insurance policy cancellation within the 14-day cooling off period, which should have been limited to a pro-rata payment and a small change fee only, but the insurance broker had simply asked the insurer for the refund figure and quoted it to me--despite the insurer having used the (out of 14-day cooling off period) normal mid-term cancellation schedule, rather than the correct one. It took several emails and phone calls, and ultimately I had to follow the broker's "formal complaint procedure" before someone properly reviewed the case and issued the correct refund amount. There was a big difference at stake, so just be aware that your refund will not simply be a pro-rata refund--you will pay through the nose for any mid-term cancellation.
--Churchmouse
You discovered in December (when ?) the revocation. Did you notify them at that time or did you wait until after the SD on 11/1. ?
I am just trying to think whether that delay might be considered relevant (I don't really think it should be. Trying to sort the mess so you knew what to report.
Also what was the date of the MS90 conviction you did not know about ? Was it before or after the policy inception. This conviction date should be visible from your driving record before it is updated and was presumably referenced in the SD.
Considering those questions in line with the disclosure requirements and the fact that the FCA basically state "you cannot disclose what you do not know" may help you formulate how you present your complaint.
Resolving it to no increase in premium would be the desired (and in my view correct) outcome.
If you cancel you are stuffed with any replacement cover since it will be loaded due to the SP30. Staying with Admiral at least means you are not stuffed till next year.
On my driving record the MS90's 'offence date' is 30 July. The speeding was in June. Because as soon as you don't reply for a month, you've committed the offence. However, the formal proceedings to endorse my license with MS90 started on November 15th in my absence and the 6 points were given on that day. Which is why I told my insurer at the time I took out the policy, I had 0 points and no endorsements so you have no right to recalculate based on something that happened after the policy started. The drones on the phone just said I'm not sure what you want me to do it's asking for offence date. If I was to lodge a complaint, would it be with the FCA? My worry is these processes can take weeks and am I insured in the meantime as they've asked for £1300 more and if I haven't given it then maybe I'm not covered? If the complaint process works efficiently I can ring whoever I need to complain to today. Also in reply to Slapdash I discovered the MS90/everything on December 28. I didn't tell my insurance because it was the first I was hearing of it and was worried they'd cancel my insurance before even hearing the courts verdict. Once I did the stat dec I informed them straight away. And I only informed the insurance because when I asked the legal advisor in the magistrates when I'd be able to drive he said tell your insurance if you don't you'll be at risk of driving without insurance. I wasn't aware that I could wait until the end of the year. I guess I'm glad it's being brought to the surface now. If I had caused an accident and they would've used this to get out of paying out which would hurt a lot more.
Your policy is with Admiral?
1. Go here: https://www.admiral.com/contact-us-help/complaint-information.php
2. Lodge a formal complaint.
3. After they investigate and if they refuse to back down, escalate your complaint to the FOS.
If you launch a complaint the insurer should put any premium increase and cancellation on hold, but if they do cancel, you should at least be notified so that you do not inadvertently drive without insurance.
You can also pay the premium increase and at the same time lodge a complaint. That would be the safest course, but an expensive one.
--Churchmouse
If they do cancel I think that is another strand to the complaint. Additional premium paid to a different insurer should be part of the overall redress is the complaint is upheld (to ensure you are in the same position as you would otherwise has been).
Unfortunately the requirements around insurer cancellation notification are generally set by whatever is in the policy.
The ombudsman guides a minimum 7 days written notice.
https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/technical_notes/cancelling-renewing-car-insurance-case-studies.html
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