Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

FightBack Forums _ Speeding and other Criminal Offences _ MS90, 6 points and license revoked (new driver), Stat Dec soon. Help please.

Posted by: Stripes Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 16:19
Post #1448532

Hi thanks for reading and please advise me if you could.
In June 2018, I was on a trip in Wales and was, unbeknownst to me, caught doing 40mph on a 30mph road. I live in a flat above a closed down office and received no letters at all. In December (now), I was in the process of moving to a new house so decided to update my driving license address. It would come up with an error repeatedly which was weird. I tried over a couple of days. So one day I decided to ask the DVLA why it won't let me change my address. Before ringing them I quickly checked my license details online using their website and saw that I have 6 points under MS90 and my license has been revoked in November under the New Drivers Act (I passed in May 2017). This of course shocked me so I rang everyone possible, and here are the responses I got. The DVLA said to ring my local magistrate and do a Stat Dec which is booked on the Friday 11th of Jan 2019. I got access to the closed offices beneath my flat and found a whole heap of letters including the NIP and letters from the DVLA. Now, here's the weird bit. My flats address is (not mentioned the real number so will use 123) 123A Something Road. Now half of the letters were addressed to 123 Something Road and some to my flat 123A. I rang the Welsh police force who issued the NIP and they said my address on log book and insurance was down as 123 Something Road, which I hadn't realised at all. However, my license address with the DVLA is 123A. I was completely unaware and thought there must be a problem. I had previously not received council tax letters to my flat either. Every letter, regardless of whether it's being addressed to 123 or 123A ends up in the closed down office. It was impossible for me to receive any letters as the post service has the top flat and bottom office down as 123 Something Road and they're giving me written confirmation of this soon. This may be why my insurance and log book has the wrong address. Anyway, I have to do a Stat Dec on the 11th and have read topics on here but I'm really unsure about the process and whether I'll be allowed to drive my car soon after it as I need it to travel to university. If you could answer the following questions it'll be really helpful.
1. What should I plead in regards to speeding and the failure to provide information.
2. How long after I submit the Stat Dec does the endorsement get removed and I can start driving?
3. What's the likelihood they'll drop the MS90 on the day if I do a plea bargain, and also how likely is it that I'll be allowed to bargain. Or who do I bargain with?
4. Do I need to take evidence with me to the magistrates for my Stat Dec?
5. If they set a new court date in Wales, will I need a solicitor to go with me or is it possible to fight this on my own? Would the letter from Royal Mail admitting no letters were being sent to my actual flat be enough to squash the MS90?

Posted by: cp8759 Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 16:56
Post #1448543

What's the address on the V5C for the vehicle you drive? The address on your licence is irrelevant as you don't have your driving licence number on display on the back of your car, you have you car's number plate instead.

Posted by: Redivi Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 16:56
Post #1448544

1. What should I plead in regards to speeding and the failure to provide information.
Not Guilty to both

2. How long after I submit the Stat Dec does the endorsement get removed and I can start driving?
Don't know

3. What's the likelihood they'll drop the MS90 on the day if I do a plea bargain, and also how likely is it that I'll be allowed to bargain. Or who do I bargain with?
You do the deal with the prosecutor. Refusal is almost unknown

4. Do I need to take evidence with me to the magistrates for my Stat Dec?
Don't think so

5. If they set a new court date in Wales, will I need a solicitor to go with me or is it possible to fight this on my own?
Would the letter from Royal Mail admitting no letters were being sent to my actual flat be enough to squash the MS90?

Solicitors are never necessary unless you're a celebrity and want to find a loophole or avoid answering questions
Can't see that the Royal Mail letter will help if the address on the registration document was wrong and letters were delivered correctly

Posted by: Stripes Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 17:15
Post #1448549

So just to be clear, on the day of the stat dec would it be possible for me to speak to the prosecutor and propose they drop the MS90 in favour of me pleading guilty for speeding? Or is that a matter for once the case is set to reopen on another date?

Posted by: andy_foster Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 17:17
Post #1448550

QUOTE (Redivi @ Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 16:56) *
5. If they set a new court date in Wales, will I need a solicitor to go with me or is it possible to fight this on my own?
Would the letter from Royal Mail admitting no letters were being sent to my actual flat be enough to squash the MS90?


Can't see that the Royal Mail letter will help if the address on the registration document was wrong and letters were delivered correctly


If no letters were being delivered to the OP's flat, regardless of whether or not they were correctly addressed, then it owuld make no difference if they were correctly addressed or not.

The issue is whether or not (the court will find that) it would have been reasonably practicable for the OP to have ensured that he received the notice and therefore be in a position to provide the information.
On the face of it, all correctly addressed mail not being delivered to his flat during the relevant period would seem to mean that it would not have been reasonably practicable - unless they found that he ought to have realised that he was not receiving any post and chased up the post office - which would seem to depend on facts which we are not currently privy to.

QUOTE (Stripes @ Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 17:15) *
So just to be clear, on the day of the stat dec would it be possible for me to speak to the prosecutor and propose they drop the MS90 in favour of me pleading guilty for speeding? Or is that a matter for once the case is set to reopen on another date?


Sometimes. Sometimes not.

Posted by: cp8759 Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 17:23
Post #1448554

QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 17:16) *
QUOTE (Redivi @ Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 16:56) *
5. If they set a new court date in Wales, will I need a solicitor to go with me or is it possible to fight this on my own?
Would the letter from Royal Mail admitting no letters were being sent to my actual flat be enough to squash the MS90?


Can't see that the Royal Mail letter will help if the address on the registration document was wrong and letters were delivered correctly


If no letters were being delivered to the OP's flat, regardless of whether or not they were correctly addressed, then it owuld make no difference if they were correctly addressed or not.

The issue is whether or not (the court will find that) it would have been reasonably practicable for the OP to have ensured that he received the notice and therefore be in a position to provide the information.
On the face of it, all correctly addressed mail not being delivered to his flat during the relevant period would seem to mean that it would not have been reasonably practicable - unless they found that he ought to have realised that he was not receiving any post and chased up the post office - which would seem to depend on facts which we are not currently privy to.

The opening post "I live in a flat above a closed down office and received no letters at all." suggests that not receiving any post whatsoever was simply the normal state of affairs, i.e. by no letters he doesn't mean just letters related to this issue, but letters generally. This IMO puts the OP in a tricky position as he must have realised something was not quite right (or else you could speed as much as you like by just registering a vehicle at an address where the Royal Mail cannot deliver).

Posted by: Logician Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 17:32
Post #1448557

If I understand correctly your V5C for the vehicle has the wrong address, 123 Something Road instead of 123A, and the NIP was duly delivered to the wrong address, so you did not receive it. You have failed to correct the error on the V5C.

In these circumstances it seems to me difficult to defend the s.172, and your best option is to attempt to do the deal you have read about on here. However that depends, usually, on you also being charged with the speeding. You do not mention the speeding, were you charged with that as well as the s.172, which would be usual? You should not have been convicted of that as there was no evidence available to the court that your were driving.

Assuming you were originally charged with both offences, immediately after the stat dec is made (for which you need no evidence) you will be asked how you plead to the two charges. Indicate not guilty to both. Sometimes the court will proceed immediately to hear the case, more usually another date is set. Assuming that happens, the procedure is as follows:

Attend court on the date set, as there is no evidence as to who was driving your car, since you have not told them, there can be no conviction for the speeding unless you plead guilty. Get to court early and ask one of the ushers (people scurrying about with clipboards and possibly gowns getting things organised) to point out to you the prosecutor who will be dealing with traffic matters. Say to him/her that you will plead guilty to the speeding if they will drop the s.172. We have never heard of prosecutors refusing to do this, they prefer to get a conviction for the underlying offence, and regard the two offences as effectively alternative offences. If you do not manage to speak to the prosecutor beforehand, you should still be able to do the deal in the courtroom. It is very difficult to do this in advance of the court hearing as you would have trouble speaking to the right person.

If you had received the NIP you could have nominated yourself as the driver and would then have received the offer of a fixed penalty*. The normal sentencing for speeding in court would be rather more severe than this, so you would have been disadvantaged. Therefore you should point this out to the court and request to be sentenced at the fixed penalty level, which is a guideline for magistrates' courts in these circumstances. The actual wording of the guideline is:

Where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances


*For that speed you would have received the offer of a course, but this is not something that the court can now offer you.


The lesson to draw from this is that the mass of bureaucratic detail involved in running a car needs to be complied with completely. Had you got your correct address put on the V5C and the Royal Mail still delivered the NIP to the office below, you could have defended the s.172 charge and the speeding charge would be out of time, leaving you clear of any points or fine.



Posted by: Stripes Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 17:43
Post #1448563

Thanks everyone for offering advice I just thought I'd clear up some issues. The reason I'm arguing that it'd be unreasonable for me to receive and reply to the letters is I just moved into the flat which is my sister's in September 2017. Most of my bank letters etc are still addressed to my old home which is where most of my mail goes as I plan to move back there. Of course I had to change my license and driving documents to 123A something Road because that's where I live. So I couldn't have notice the lack of post because I didn't expect anything to be posted. I spoke to a solicitor who advised to plead guilty to Failure to Furnish but request a hearing for sentencing where a solicitor would contact the cps and at the hearing argue that although it wasn't the polices fault as they sent the letters to the address on their records, I still couldn't have received them and the court may take leniency and not give 6 points but rather a week ban or something similar. Is this a smart route to take?

Posted by: Irksome Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 17:55
Post #1448569

Its a very smart route to take if you want to end up with the MS90 conviction! The advice you have been given here is correct, and your solicitor is incorrect.

Posted by: Jlc Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 18:05
Post #1448573

I wouldn’t say the solicitor was ‘incorrect’ as it might work (or it might not) but I’d prefer my chances on the plea bargain.

Posted by: cp8759 Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 18:09
Post #1448576

QUOTE (Stripes @ Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 17:43) *
Of course I had to change my license and driving documents to 123A something Road because that's where I live. So I couldn't have notice the lack of post because I didn't expect anything to be posted.

There's no "of course" about it, the legal obligation is that your car must be registered at an address where it is possible to receive post. There is no legal obligation that the address the place where you happen to live. From what you've said, you should have just left your car registration as it was, or changed it to some other address where you could receive post.

Posted by: Stripes Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 18:26
Post #1448585

I wasn't aware of the lack of post issue until I found out I had an MS90 endorsement as I wasn't expecting to receive any post. Also, what exactly is the process on the day. Do I have to prepare a declaration or do i write one when I'm there? Another solicitor advised me to speak to the legal adviser in front of the magistrate and simply explain the whole situation as a lot of unnecessary stress because of a post mix up and that if I knew about the speeding ticket I'd have easily gone on the course or paid the fine so I'm requesting I be given the chance to do that. Is this likely to resolve the matter? Because pleading not guilty means a trial and I can't really afford a solicitor I'm a student in university. Do I ask the magistrate to drop the MS90 in favour of guilty for speeding if I can't talk to the prosecutor beforehand?

Posted by: Irksome Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 18:32
Post #1448589

Take a look through some of the recent threads on this ... there have been some good explanations from people who have been through this process and taken the time to post back their experiences.

The stat dec is just that, a declaration sworn on oath that you had no knowledge of the prosecution that you faced. You will need to swear in court (to either a bench of 3 magistrates of the district judge) that this is the case. They shouldn't really discuss the matter of the allegation, but often do to expedite the matter - you would plead not guilty etc as per the advice above.

Posted by: Stripes Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 12:02
Post #1450156

Quick update. Did the stat Dec. Court automatically offered to drop ms90 for a guilty plea in speeding without even asking why I wasn't able to reply. £40 fine, £85 court costs and £30 victim surcharge and 3 points.

Posted by: Stripes Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 14:25
Post #1450211

Hi I'd appreciate some advice on this matter. I was flashed by a camera speeding on 25/06/18. Due to the police posting letters to the wrong house, I was given an MS90 and appeared in court today for a statutory declaration and had the MS90 and 6 points wiped off in return for 3 points and a 40 pound fine. I believe for SP30. I'm trying to inform my insurer and they're asking for the date of offence. Does this mean the date I was speeding or today in January when I was given the 3 points. I started my policy with them in September 2018 and if I have to say I got a SP30 in June then they'll charge me an extra 1300 in insurance. But would this not be false as the speeding was in June but i received no points until January 2019 and also the court wiped out all the MS90 and points, at the time of insuring the car in September 2018 I had no points and no conviction. Please help or ask a question if you need clarification

Posted by: Stripes Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 14:57
Post #1450219

Hi I'd appreciate some advice on this matter. I was flashed by a camera speeding on 25/06/18. Due to the police posting letters to the wrong house, I was given an MS90 and appeared in court today for a statutory declaration and had the MS90 and 6 points wiped off in return for 3 points and a 40 pound fine. I believe for SP30. I'm trying to inform my insurer and they're asking for the date of offence. Does this mean the date I was speeding or today in January when I was given the 3 points. I started my policy with them in September 2018 and if I have to say I got a SP30 in June then they'll charge me an extra 1300 in insurance. But would this not be false as the speeding was in June but i received no points until January 2019 and also the court wiped out all the MS90 and points, at the time of insuring the car in September 2018 I had no points and no conviction. Please help or ask a question if you need clarification

Posted by: peterguk Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 15:04
Post #1450225

Linked to this case?:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=125184&hl=


Phone the insurance comopany and ask them?

Posted by: The Rookie Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 15:07
Post #1450227

That’s a rather weird financial set, but a result none the less!

Posted by: Stripes Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 15:24
Post #1450235

Would you know which date id have to tell my insurer. Today as in the date I was convicted or June the date of speeding

Posted by: Jlc Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 15:32
Post #1450244

If they ask for the date of offence then it's 25/06/18.

Or if they want the date of conviction then it's today.

Posted by: cp8759 Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 15:58
Post #1450258

QUOTE (Stripes @ Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 14:57) *
3 points and a 40 pound fine.

40 or 400?

Posted by: Logician Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 20:42
Post #1450341

QUOTE (Stripes @ Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 15:24) *
Would you know which date id have to tell my insurer. Today as in the date I was convicted or June the date of speeding


QUOTE
I started my policy with them in September 2018 and if I have to say I got a SP30 in June then they'll charge me an extra 1300 in insurance. But would this not be false as the speeding was in June but i received no points until January 2019 and also the court wiped out all the MS90 and points, at the time of insuring the car in September 2018 I had no points and no conviction


Give the correct information in the way most helpful to you, such as "I now have 3 points on my licence following a conviction on 11/1/19 for an offence on 25/6/18." If they want more information to explain the long gap between the two dates they can ask for it and you can explain in full.


Posted by: Stripes Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 00:09
Post #1450403

Damn. I informed my insurance today and they said as the offence was in June and my policy was taken out in September, its going to increase my premium by £1300. I already paid £2300 for insurance. I think I'm going to have to cancel the policy I won't be extorted for something that was out of my control. I tried explaining that I didn't have the points when I signed up for insurance with them and that I just got them today but they said they're counting it as me having SP30 from the date of the offence.

Posted by: Slapdash Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 00:17
Post #1450404

Did you provide your driving licence number to them when taking out the policy?


Posted by: The Rookie Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 01:56
Post #1450420

That much for one SP30 is outrageous, it’s clearly a rip off, do a dummy quote on a comparison site with a made up name at the house next door and using a reg number for a near identical car (find one on autotrader) and see how much they should be charging.....

Posted by: cp8759 Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 19:03
Post #1450635

QUOTE (Stripes @ Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 00:09) *
Damn. I informed my insurance today and they said as the offence was in June and my policy was taken out in September, its going to increase my premium by £1300. I already paid £2300 for insurance. I think I'm going to have to cancel the policy I won't be extorted for something that was out of my control. I tried explaining that I didn't have the points when I signed up for insurance with them and that I just got them today but they said they're counting it as me having SP30 from the date of the offence.

Shop around, many insurance companies don't add anything at all for a single SP30.

Posted by: Stripes Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 14:57
Post #1450893

QUOTE (Slapdash @ Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 00:17) *
Did you provide your driving licence number to them when taking out the policy?

I believe I did, what's the significance of me giving my driving license number to them?

I've tried looking around and the insurance quotes are completely out of whack. On my original quote for 2300 as soon as I added the SP30 it jumped to 6000+. I should mention I'm 19 so I guess it's fair enough on their part but what's unfair is my current insurer trying to rip me off. As far as I see it, I had no clue about the points or anything until December, the whole MS90 charge was wiped and I was just given 3 points for SP30 a few days ago. If they think they can use that as an excuse to extort me by backdating it then they can give me my premium back and I'll leave.

Posted by: Slapdash Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 15:46
Post #1450902

The significance - well it might not be anything. And I am unsure of the timeline and whether your insurers are trying to backdate the charge and also what your insurer contractual requirement for disclosure is.

But, by giving you licence number they may be a thin argument that their due diligence meant they should have verified the veracity of the information given from your driving record.

That may may possibly give ground for formal complaint and escalation to the FCA.


Posted by: NewJudge Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 16:46
Post #1450911

QUOTE (Slapdash @ Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 15:46) *
But, by giving you licence number they may be a thin argument that their due diligence meant they should have verified the veracity of the information given from your driving record.

That may may possibly give ground for formal complaint and escalation to the FCA.

Leaving aside the merit (or otherwise) of the OP's argument, that approach implies it is OK to mislead an insurer because it is their responsibility to verify what you tell them. If they don't you cannot be held responsible. I don't see the FCA wearing that, somehow.

Posted by: Slapdash Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 17:12
Post #1450923

I wasn't suggesting it is Ok to mislead. Merely that failing to disclose an unknown conviction may well not be negligent.

Posted by: Stripes Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 18:14
Post #1450931

Sorry I'll clear up some of the timeline. In June 2018 I was flashed by a camera. Took out insurance in September 2018. In November 2018 I was given 6 points and my license revoked without me knowing. In December 2018 I found out about the whole scenario and in January 2019 the 6 points were removed as i had no knowledge of the speeding and I was given 3 points instead. Now when informing my insurance, they said what was the date of the offence, to which I replied the speeding ticket was issued in June but all charges in relation to it were wiped and I've just been convicted of SP30 offence. They're saying if the 'date of offence' is June, I am liable to pay £1300 more, but if the date of offence is January it occured after I started my policy so they can't demand more money but they'll increase renewal price. My point is that at the time of insuring in September, my license was completely clean. 0 points. Now I have 3 after taking out insurance but they're trying to backdate the whole scenario. The official answer I suppose I will get when the courts update the DVLA and they update my online license and the date of offence will be displayed there. I believe the date of offence for a minor thing like SP30 starts from the day of the speeding whereas serious things like drink driving are from date of conviction so I'm going to have to tell insurers the date of offence is June and they'll try to get 1300 out of me, to which I'm going to respond by cancelling

Posted by: Slapdash Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 19:05
Post #1450940

Your insurers need to be clearer on their terminology as to what they require.

date of offence - this being the date of the incident. Back in June in yoir case.

date of conviction - this being the date you were convicted (January).

Your insurers need to be clear which is relevant to them (they must know).

I personally have never had an insurer interested in offence date only the date of conviction.

Edit: fwiw CompareTheMarket quite specifically request conviction dates.

Posted by: andy_foster Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 19:06
Post #1450941

In other words, when you took out your insurance you had no convictions and were not aware of any pending convictions.

Posted by: Logician Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 21:02
Post #1450971

I think you are right, but shop around before cancelling the policy.

Posted by: Stripes Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 21:46
Post #1450991

I was on the phone to them for ages and they really didn't have a clue the guy just kept repeating I want the date of the offence. Call centre wasn't UK based not sure he even knows what a conviction date is. They were just reading off a screen that said Date of offence. They will take my word for it if I say January but if I have an accident and they dig around they might say I gave them the wrong date and cancel me/not pay out. I'm not trying to defraud them or anything but I just think it's ridiculous they can use semantics to get money out of me. I've shopped around and there's nothing under 6 thousand pounds. Unfortunately, thats the end of cars for me. Going to do the CBT and buy a bike. Much better on insurance. Thanks for your help guys its kept me semi sane through all this. If you have any advice on whether I can get around this insurance problem I'd appreciate it.

And what I've noticed is the insurance companies will use every way to stick it to the customer. When getting a new policy, places like compare the market and most insurers will ask for date of conviction because it's always the later date and there's a chance the offence date has expired but you're still within 5 years of the conviction date and have to declare = money. But when it comes to something like my situation they want offence date so they can try to scam money out of people.

Posted by: Logician Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 01:41
Post #1451055

You may get a better deal through a broker, try https://www.adrianflux.co.uk/young-drivers/?utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&utm_campaign=young_driver&utm_content=respsearch&gclid=CjwKCAiA4OvhBRAjEiwAU2FoJW4StPkDGLe8B6Ot-Q2QtiF0CdLGIy4Mi3B8bsjA2FJYyUfyzOCOORoCUqwQAvD_BwE

Posted by: The Rookie Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 02:12
Post #1451062

At the time you took out the policy your information was correct, you had no convictions and were not aware of any. It’s the same situation as if you had been stopped the day after you took out the policy, or received the NIP the day after for an offence that occurred before, the risk they assessed at that time was correct.

I’d be submitting a formal complaint and asking they suspend the extra demand until it’s heard.

Posted by: Churchmouse Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 08:45
Post #1451091

On what basis are they demanding that you pay them now, rather that at renewal? Non-disclosure? AFAIK, you did not have anything to disclose, but the industry term for this seems to be "innocent non-disclosure" of a material fact. It would be unwise to force the insurer into cancelling your policy, as that ("Have you ever had a policy of insurance cancelled?") is something you will be asked about every time you apply for insurance in the future. But you can ask them to clarify the basis for their demand and go from there.

My understanding is that the Financial Ombudsman Service (FAS), the insurance industry's regulator, views innocent non-disclosure in this way:

QUOTE
what doesn't need to be disclosed

We are unlikely to say an insurer should have expected a consumer to provide information if we think:

the insurer did not ask a specific and clear question which - if answered honestly - would have given them that information

the consumer did not know the information or

the consumer could not reasonably have been expected to know.

I do not see any justification for the insurer either cancelling the policy (which they would have done already) or increasing the premium before the renewal date, based on the facts you have provided here. So, I would keep them talking (ideally in writing!), and if they fail to resolve the dispute over the increased premium, first lodge a "formal complaint" with the insurer and, after that has been investigated and rejected, escalate the dispute to the FAS. (The FAS will not get involved until you have gone down the internal complaint route.) If you are ultimately successful, then your insurance record will be clean, you'll just have an SP30 to disclose, and you can easily go to another insurer rather than renew with your current one.

--Churchmouse

Posted by: Stripes Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 09:20
Post #1451103

I'm definately going to keep trying and try to speak to someone higher up who can give me a straight answer but their terms aren't 'punishing' me for non disclosure as I told them I just got the points the day I rang them. They're saying as the offence occured (speeding) before you were insured, we would've calculated your premiums differently so here's a £1300 increase for you. I tried explaining every which way that i received these points while in my insurance year not before. I rang back a couple of times to confirm but they were just reading off there screen which says what's the 'date of offence' and then it calculated a higher premium. I will definitely begin the process of a formal internal complaint but where does this put my insurance in the mean time while they spend 6 weeks ignoring it? Should I continue to drive knowing that they're going to want £1300 if I ever want it to be legitimate in their eyes?

Posted by: The Rookie Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 09:29
Post #1451106

QUOTE (Stripes @ Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 09:20) *
They're saying as the offence occured (speeding) before you were insured, we would've calculated your premiums differently

But that's EXACTLY the same as if you got a NIP (for a speeding offence) the day after renewal for an event that happened before renewal, something neither you or they could have predicted would happen, with many NIP's taking circa 6 weeks to arrive (via a third party) that would potentially impact a lot of renewals.

Posted by: Slapdash Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 09:57
Post #1451118

On the insurance proposal form for the company in question and within the policy what exactly is:-

- the question asked related to convictions

- the description related to notification of convictions in the policy

If you were with my insurer (and yours is likely to be similar) then mine says under notify immediately:-

"Motoring convictions (driving licence endorsements, fixed penalties or pending prosecutions for any motoring offences) for any of the people insured, or to be insured."

It also says:-

"When you inform us of a change, we will tell you if this affects your policy, for example whether we are able to accept the change and if so, whether the change will result in revised terms and/or premium being applied to your policy."

This would, in my view, give them the right to demand to know when it happened and adjust the premiums in any way they saw fit.

This is the position you find your self in. The inherent problem is that this gives them carte blanche to do whatever they want and may fall foul of unfair contract terms legislation if the policyholder were forced to accept it.

However my insurer would not force acceptance. I would be under the normal cancellation rights:-


"Or, if you wish to cancel and the insurance cover has already started, you will be entitled to a refund of the premium paid, less a proportionate deduction for the time for which you have been covered. There will also be an additional charge as shown in your schedule of £25.00 if you cancel within the first 14 days (plus Insurance Premium Tax, where applicable) to cover the administrative cost of providing the policy."

Your only option may be to cancel and insure elsewhere. You do not want them to cancel. That can have very unfriendly insurance consequences going fowards.

It is unfortunate in the extreme that the consequences of non delivery of mail are so harsh since you may well have been eligible for a course (generally has much less insurance impact).

It seems that you have not been disadvantaged by the undeclared (but unknown) temporary conviction. You do need to be sure that the revised premium is based solely upon 3pts and a single SP30 rather than any inclusion of the now defunct MS90.

A complaint about the level of premium is unlikely to be fruitful. Ultimately the insurer can asess risk however they want.

They do, however, have a duty to treat fairly. Thus your premium ought to be reasonably similar for a similar new business case. This is obviously difficult to ascertain but a dummy quote with same vehicle and conviction date for a policy starting shortly may yield a reasonable indication.

Posted by: Churchmouse Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 17:52
Post #1451755

QUOTE (Slapdash @ Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 09:57) *
A complaint about the level of premium is unlikely to be fruitful. Ultimately the insurer can asess risk however they want.

They do, however, have a duty to treat fairly. Thus your premium ought to be reasonably similar for a similar new business case. This is obviously difficult to ascertain but a dummy quote with same vehicle and conviction date for a policy starting shortly may yield a reasonable indication.

I'm not sure this would be a complaint just about the level of premium, because if the OP refuses to pay the extra premium, the insurer may then cancel the policy for non-payment of premium. That's why I suggest the OP file the complaint NOW, rather than after cancellation occurs.

I haven't actually checked my policies recently, but I had thought it was more common for convictions to be reportable at renewal, rather than immediately?

--Churchmouse

Posted by: Stripes Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 18:13
Post #1451762

The MS90 has been removed and the MS30 with a 40 pound fine is all that's left on my license. The DVLA say the date of offence is June so my insurer will want the increased premium. When I rang them I said I'm not even sure if what the conviction code (SP30) is or what the court regard the date of offence is so got them to recalculate based on a presumed SP30 dated June which I now know is the case. As they've said they noted I called to update them about the conviction and will wait until I receive all the paperwork from the courts, would it be best to just ring and cancel my policy before they demand the money. Or when telling them yes it is dated June and when they recalculate premiums can I just say I'd rather not and cancel that way? The insurer is Admiral by the way.

Posted by: Slapdash Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 19:01
Post #1451783

I think you need to escalate.

Admirals policy wordings are available on their website.

They require to be notified of revocation or disqualification immediately.

They require to be notified of convictions at renewal.

Of course your policy may have other requirements.

See page 6.

https://www.admiral.com/existing-customers/policy-documents.php

It seems to me that you have fulfilled this requirement. There doesn't appear to be any mention of them giving themselves the right to recalculate mid year, but I have not read it all nor seen your documentation.

As churchmouse said start the process of complaint now. Getting a policy cancelled on you by an insurer is a problem. It seems to me that their attempt to backdate is probably wrong. You appear to have declared accurately at the required time.

Even in September at inception there was no conviction to declare, the one in your absence had not happened. (Their point may be that had the documents relating to that not gone astray the conviction might have happened prior to September but the courts have accepted your statutory declaration and expunged that).

Posted by: Churchmouse Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 00:03
Post #1451910

I agree with Slapdash on the above.

Please also note that a voluntary cancellation will probably cost you a lot more than you think. I recently went through an insurance policy cancellation within the 14-day cooling off period, which should have been limited to a pro-rata payment and a small change fee only, but the insurance broker had simply asked the insurer for the refund figure and quoted it to me--despite the insurer having used the (out of 14-day cooling off period) normal mid-term cancellation schedule, rather than the correct one. It took several emails and phone calls, and ultimately I had to follow the broker's "formal complaint procedure" before someone properly reviewed the case and issued the correct refund amount. There was a big difference at stake, so just be aware that your refund will not simply be a pro-rata refund--you will pay through the nose for any mid-term cancellation.

--Churchmouse

Posted by: Slapdash Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 00:57
Post #1451918

You discovered in December (when ?) the revocation. Did you notify them at that time or did you wait until after the SD on 11/1. ?

I am just trying to think whether that delay might be considered relevant (I don't really think it should be. Trying to sort the mess so you knew what to report.

Also what was the date of the MS90 conviction you did not know about ? Was it before or after the policy inception. This conviction date should be visible from your driving record before it is updated and was presumably referenced in the SD.

Considering those questions in line with the disclosure requirements and the fact that the FCA basically state "you cannot disclose what you do not know" may help you formulate how you present your complaint.

Resolving it to no increase in premium would be the desired (and in my view correct) outcome.

If you cancel you are stuffed with any replacement cover since it will be loaded due to the SP30. Staying with Admiral at least means you are not stuffed till next year.


Posted by: Stripes Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 09:25
Post #1451957

On my driving record the MS90's 'offence date' is 30 July. The speeding was in June. Because as soon as you don't reply for a month, you've committed the offence. However, the formal proceedings to endorse my license with MS90 started on November 15th in my absence and the 6 points were given on that day. Which is why I told my insurer at the time I took out the policy, I had 0 points and no endorsements so you have no right to recalculate based on something that happened after the policy started. The drones on the phone just said I'm not sure what you want me to do it's asking for offence date. If I was to lodge a complaint, would it be with the FCA? My worry is these processes can take weeks and am I insured in the meantime as they've asked for £1300 more and if I haven't given it then maybe I'm not covered? If the complaint process works efficiently I can ring whoever I need to complain to today. Also in reply to Slapdash I discovered the MS90/everything on December 28. I didn't tell my insurance because it was the first I was hearing of it and was worried they'd cancel my insurance before even hearing the courts verdict. Once I did the stat dec I informed them straight away. And I only informed the insurance because when I asked the legal advisor in the magistrates when I'd be able to drive he said tell your insurance if you don't you'll be at risk of driving without insurance. I wasn't aware that I could wait until the end of the year. I guess I'm glad it's being brought to the surface now. If I had caused an accident and they would've used this to get out of paying out which would hurt a lot more.

Posted by: Churchmouse Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 11:00
Post #1451988

Your policy is with Admiral?

1. Go here: https://www.admiral.com/contact-us-help/complaint-information.php

2. Lodge a formal complaint.

3. After they investigate and if they refuse to back down, escalate your complaint to the FOS.

If you launch a complaint the insurer should put any premium increase and cancellation on hold, but if they do cancel, you should at least be notified so that you do not inadvertently drive without insurance.

You can also pay the premium increase and at the same time lodge a complaint. That would be the safest course, but an expensive one.

--Churchmouse

Posted by: Slapdash Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 11:38
Post #1452002

If they do cancel I think that is another strand to the complaint. Additional premium paid to a different insurer should be part of the overall redress is the complaint is upheld (to ensure you are in the same position as you would otherwise has been).

Unfortunately the requirements around insurer cancellation notification are generally set by whatever is in the policy.

The ombudsman guides a minimum 7 days written notice.

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/technical_notes/cancelling-renewing-car-insurance-case-studies.html


Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)