UK CPM - Court claim form for parking in 'visitors' bay in own residence |
UK CPM - Court claim form for parking in 'visitors' bay in own residence |
Sun, 3 Mar 2019 - 21:56
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 18 Joined: 3 Mar 2019 Member No.: 102,728 |
Hi, I've received a court claim form for parking in a visitors space in my own residence where I own a parking space. The PPC is UK CPM Ltd.
I'm not home until Wednesday so don't have lease or correspondence from the PPC to begin draughting a defence just yet. I found this post that seems fairly similar to my own case, so will use it as a base. Wondering what are the next steps. Assuming I should send off the acknowledgement of service intending to defend all of the claim ASAP? Do I also need to make a counterclaim in order to force a hearing? Thanks for any help. This post has been edited by gotcmpd: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 - 14:40 |
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Sun, 3 Mar 2019 - 21:56
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Sun, 3 Mar 2019 - 22:58
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
Get the ack send of as soon as possible using the details and password on the form. Nothing in the defence. This gives you 33 days from date of Issue to get your defence to court.
The lease, and what it says, will be most important in that. |
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Mon, 4 Mar 2019 - 09:37
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
Do the ack online
Do not use the form Nothing is done in paper. Tell us the DATE OF ISSUE The lease is critical. Pointless starting until you know what rights you have. |
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Mon, 4 Mar 2019 - 09:59
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 41,510 Joined: 25 Aug 2011 From: Planet Earth Member No.: 49,223 |
I'd be surprised if it gave any rights over visitor spaces?
Do I also need to make a counterclaim in order to force a hearing? On what basis would you be counterclaiming? I don't think you will need to worry about 'forcing' a hearing. But be careful as you could open yourself up to costs with such a 'strategy'. -------------------- RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it. |
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Mon, 4 Mar 2019 - 10:52
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
You'd be surprised
Ive seen some which allows use of visitor spaces on first come first served but does not restrict who uses them. Its worth seeing. |
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Wed, 6 Mar 2019 - 14:39
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 18 Joined: 3 Mar 2019 Member No.: 102,728 |
On what basis would you be counterclaiming? I don't think you will need to worry about 'forcing' a hearing. But be careful as you could open yourself up to costs with such a 'strategy'. See advice from the post I linked to in post #1 by Eljayjay: QUOTE Bringing a counterclaim will result in the matter coming to a head at a hearing. If you do not counterclaim, you run the risk that case will be hanging over your head for months only for the parking company to discontinue at the last possible moment (with the possibility that they might come at you again at any time within a six-year period). The counterclaim prevents this. Issue date: 25th Feb 2019. Defence needs to be in by 30th March 2019. |
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Wed, 6 Mar 2019 - 15:03
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
Yes, OP, we know the strategy
However What is your legal basis for counterclaiming? Counterclaiming solely to get a hearing is an abuse of process, and can expose you to huge costs. So, wheres the lease? I presume youve been working on the defence in your absence? |
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Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 00:41
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 18 Joined: 3 Mar 2019 Member No.: 102,728 |
Yes, OP, we know the strategy However What is your legal basis for counterclaiming? Counterclaiming solely to get a hearing is an abuse of process, and can expose you to huge costs. So, wheres the lease? I presume youve been working on the defence in your absence? Sorry, I'm just wondering why the poster in that post which is quite a similar case to mine (parking in visitors spot as lessee / unauthorised parking - no visitors permit displayed / UK CPM Ltd + Gladstones etc) was advised to post a counterclaim in order to force a hearing whereas you're warning me against it? Isn't the legal basis to counterclaim the same as the poster in that thread? If anything, my case should hopefully be clearer, as the signs in the car park mention nothing about visitor spaces, there are no markings or any signage to specify the bay as a visitor bay, plus I have witnesses, such as the buildings manager, who said it was OK to park there, and will back me up if needed. The lease I have is a draft copy, I don't think the one I signed was any different apart from having my flat number filled in, but I can't be 100% sure. I have looked through it and there is nothing mentioning visitor spaces or anything to do with UK CPM. There are the usual clauses giving the lessee access over common areas with/without a vehicle for the purpose of ingress/egress etc. I should also say, I received several LBC's from Gladstones, and never replied as I mistakenly thought it was only a claim form that I needed to reply to. Is it too late to reply to the LBC? Should I also do a SAR? |
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Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 07:51
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 41,510 Joined: 25 Aug 2011 From: Planet Earth Member No.: 49,223 |
Shouldn’t have ignored a LBCCC as this gives you a specific debt claim protocol to request info. Might as well SAR but you can’t force the timelines.
Let’s see the signs. You still need a legal basis to counterclaim. This could be under data protection as your personal details were incorrectly accessed (if from the DVLA) and processed but it’s not straightforward. Most cases the judge will see it as reasonable for an approved parking operator to pursue a parking charge. If you tell the court it’s to ‘force’ a hearing you could be in for a large surprise. This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 07:52 -------------------- RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it. |
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Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 12:30
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
I'm not say - don't counterclaim
I'm saying - you must have a legit reason to do so. Forcing a hearing is not legit, as you've been told twice now. So you don't have rights to park in visitors spaces, from what you've told me, meaning they can "sell" those spaces to ou? If you don't agree then get your lease and properly check for what rights you are granted. |
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Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 12:38
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 41,510 Joined: 25 Aug 2011 From: Planet Earth Member No.: 49,223 |
Need to see those signs and exact wording on lease...
-------------------- RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it. |
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Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 14:13
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 18 Joined: 3 Mar 2019 Member No.: 102,728 |
I'm not saying that forcing a hearing is my legal basis for counterclaiming, that's just the 'unofficial' reason!
The legal basis for counterclaim could be about accessing personal details from DVLA, as jlc alluded to, and this is what the other poster used. I'd need advice on what would be a decent legal basis depending on my individual case, if there is one. Can I still request info by replying to the LBC, or has that ship sailed now? Here's the sign: Link Here's a copy of my lease, again please note it's a draft lease: Link Any more things you need to see let me know and i'll do my best - thanks for the help so far! |
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Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 20:47
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,898 Joined: 15 Dec 2007 From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town. Member No.: 16,066 |
Your draft lease gives you exclusive rights over the parking space, irrespective of the display of a permit. Presumably, the executed original is with the mortgagee. In order to show that the lease is in the same form, you will either have to get a copy from the mortgagee or the Land Registry.
The lease is probably the best way to defeat CPM. -------------------- Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 22:58
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 901 Joined: 1 Apr 2017 Member No.: 91,235 |
gotcmpd -
The problem for you is that your draft lease gives you the right to park in your allocated parking space, but it appears that was not where you were parked. Do not rely on a draft lease - get a copy of the lease which was signed. If you do not have a copy, try the solicitor who handled your purchase of the lease and, if that fails, apply to the Land Registry for a copy by completing a form OC2 and paying the modest fee involved. |
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Sat, 9 Mar 2019 - 01:13
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
I can't see anything in there at all about visitors spaces
Unless they are classed as communal, but again there's only pass and repass there. |
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Sat, 9 Mar 2019 - 09:53
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
And that sign is, of course, a forbidding sign. Parking is offered for authorised users. What did the PCN accuse the driver of doing.
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Sun, 10 Mar 2019 - 22:13
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 18 Joined: 3 Mar 2019 Member No.: 102,728 |
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Mon, 11 Mar 2019 - 07:06
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
So the sign says "authorised vehicles only". So there is no offer of a parking contract to unauthorised vehicles, no contract then there can be no breach of the non existent contract. They have claimed for unauthorised parking so they are claiming there is a contract when their sign says otherwise. Court cases have been won on this point.
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Mon, 11 Mar 2019 - 09:52
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
Indeed, plus you challenge standing
The query is - what made you think yo uCOULD park in visitors spaces?? You havent ever answered that |
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Mon, 11 Mar 2019 - 11:22
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 18 Joined: 3 Mar 2019 Member No.: 102,728 |
The reasons I parked in the bay were:
- I own a parking bay but that was occupied - My wife was 9months+2 weeks pregnant (our daughter was born the day after the incident), and this bay is a lot closer to the entrance! - We thought it was ok to park there, given verbal assurances from the buildings manager who looks after the estate. - There are no signs or markings to illustrate that these bays are for contractors / visitors only. Nothing to differentiate them from any other bay, including the one I own. - The sign I took a picture of is for the whole car park, not just these bays. I own a bay but have never been issued a UK CPM valid permit to park there, so effectively every time I park in my own bay this should also be unauthorised parking, according to the sign. The other discrepancy I should bring up is that the PCN is issued on 6th Dec 2017 at 18:24. However according to google, the sun set at 15:22 on that date in London. The pictures included in the PCN are all in broad daylight, which means this incident could not have occurred when they said it did. Does this make it void?! Is this a point to bring up as part of the defence? This post has been edited by gotcmpd: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 - 11:26 |
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