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Another PCN received with insufficient evidence
jagoico2000
post Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 20:08
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The driver of my car studies at a college during the week and pays for parking on a pay and display basis. Today I received the following PCN. I am the registered keeper of the vehicle so they are chasing me. However, the driver asserts that he/she has always paid and displayed. He/she doesn't keep the stubs indefinitely.

The PCN shows CCTV footage of the car entering and leaving but not of parking. Nor does it show any evidence of the car being parked without a pay and display ticket.

Is there a recommended template for an appeal? I can't understand how this is meant to work. What's to stop them sending one of these for every day and putting the burden of proof on me?

I should add there was no sticky parking "ticket" put on the windscreen. The driver has seen them doing this for other cars. This was purely a retrospective PCN issued.




How about this:

Dear Sirs

Re: PCN No. ....................

I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car. I was not the driver of the car at the times specified in the "PCN" and you have not provided any evidence that the vehicle was parked without a valid permit. The driver has confirmed separately that they did indeed have a valid permit at the time.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

This post has been edited by jagoico2000: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 20:08
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post Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 20:08
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cabbyman
post Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 20:41
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Let's have a look at the back as well.


--------------------
Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Jlc
post Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 20:44
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The pay bit is fine - there's no 'display' as it's all done by cameras. Either the car registration was entered incorrectly or their machines messed up.

Their machines messing up does happen - they doth protest but could face a data protection claim.

But as the PCN does not even attempt to use PoFA then you're on to a winner...

QUOTE (cabbyman @ Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 20:41) *
Let's have a look at the back as well.

Yup, just to double check wording...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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SchoolRunMum
post Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 20:51
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I think CEL now have the POFA wording correctly stated on the back (check yours) so the fact you were not driving won't assist you.

I would use the MSE forum version of template appeal instead, from the NEWBIES thread there, because it includes a question about whether the VRN was recorded wrongly by their machine and if so it asks for a copy of the PDT machine list (this is evidence that will help you see that the issue was).
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jagoico2000
post Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 21:04
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Back of the letter here:

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SchoolRunMum
post Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 21:13
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Yes, as I said, you can see the wording there (no need for us to point it out).
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cabbyman
post Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 21:23
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The have no evidence of the period parked, as you mentioned. That's a point to make.


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Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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jagoico2000
post Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 21:43
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Sorry if I don't get it but, how does the fact they mention PoFA wording on the back change things?

I've checked the MSE website. Template letter:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re PCN number:

I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a formal complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner and to my MP.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. Since your PCN is a vague template, I require ALL photos taken and an explanation of the allegation and your evidence, i.e.:

- If the allegation concerns a PDT machine, the data supplied in response to this appeal must include the record of payments made - showing partial VRNs - and an explanation of the reason for the PCN, because your Notice does not explain it.

- If the allegation involves an alleged overstay of minutes, your evidence must include the actual grace period agreed by the landowner. If you fail to evidence the actual grace period that applies at this site or suggest that only one period applies, this will be disregarded as an attempt to mislead. In the absence of evidence, it will be reasonably taken to be a minimum of twenty minutes (ten on arrival and ten after parking time) in accordance with the official BPA article by Kelvin Reynolds about 'observation periods' on arrival being additional and separate to a 'grace period' at the end.

- in all cases, you must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date.

Formal note:
Should you later pursue this charge by way of litigation, note that service of any legal documents by email is expressly disallowed and you are not entitled to assume that the data in this dispute/appeal remains the current address for service in the future.

Yours faithfully,

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Seems a bit wordy to me. Not sure it works with the PCN they sent me. Alternatively, what I suggested earlier:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sirs

Re: PCN No. ....................

I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car. I was not the driver of the car at the times specified in the "PCN" and you have not provided any evidence that the vehicle was parked without a valid permit. The driver has confirmed separately that they did indeed have a valid permit at the time.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Umkomaas
post Mon, 17 Dec 2018 - 22:14
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QUOTE
Sorry if I don't get it but, how does the fact they mention PoFA wording on the back change things?

Because they need to meet the full requirements of PoFA in order to transfer liability to the Registered Keeper - that paragraph is the warning required by PoFA.

QUOTE
Seems a bit wordy to me. Not sure it works with the PCN they sent me. Alternatively, what I suggested earlier:

Well, sometimes we do get people who know far more than those who are dealing with this stuff day in, day out. Your choice.
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jagoico2000
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 09:39
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So is this wording okay?

Re PCN number:

I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a formal complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner and to my MP.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. Since your PCN is a vague template, I require ALL photos taken and an explanation of the allegation and your evidence, i.e.:

- If the allegation concerns a PDT machine, the data supplied in response to this appeal must include the record of payments made - showing partial VRNs - and an explanation of the reason for the PCN, because your Notice does not explain it.

- If the allegation involves an alleged overstay of minutes, your evidence must include the actual grace period agreed by the landowner. If you fail to evidence the actual grace period that applies at this site or suggest that only one period applies, this will be disregarded as an attempt to mislead. In the absence of evidence, it will be reasonably taken to be a minimum of twenty minutes (ten on arrival and ten after parking time) in accordance with the official BPA article by Kelvin Reynolds about 'observation periods' on arrival being additional and separate to a 'grace period' at the end.

- in all cases, you must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date.

- the driver has confirmed that a valid permit was displayed correctly. Please provide evidence that there was no valid permit displayed.

Formal note:
Should you later pursue this charge by way of litigation, note that service of any legal documents by email is expressly disallowed and you are not entitled to assume that the data in this dispute/appeal remains the current address for service in the future.

Yours faithfully,
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Ollyfrog
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 11:06
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QUOTE (jagoico2000 @ Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 09:39) *
- the driver has confirmed that a valid permit was displayed correctly. Please provide evidence that there was no valid permit displayed.


I thought this was pay and display rather than permit holder parking?
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jagoico2000
post Tue, 18 Dec 2018 - 16:40
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Re PCN number:

I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a formal complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner and to my MP.

There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. Since your PCN is a vague template, I require ALL photos taken and an explanation of the allegation and your evidence, i.e.:

- If the allegation concerns a PDT machine, the data supplied in response to this appeal must include the record of payments made - showing partial VRNs - and an explanation of the reason for the PCN, because your Notice does not explain it.

- If the allegation involves an alleged overstay of minutes, your evidence must include the actual grace period agreed by the landowner. If you fail to evidence the actual grace period that applies at this site or suggest that only one period applies, this will be disregarded as an attempt to mislead. In the absence of evidence, it will be reasonably taken to be a minimum of twenty minutes (ten on arrival and ten after parking time) in accordance with the official BPA article by Kelvin Reynolds about 'observation periods' on arrival being additional and separate to a 'grace period' at the end.

- in all cases, you must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date.

- the driver has confirmed that a valid "pay and display" permit was paid for and correctly displayed in the vehicle. Please provide evidence that there was no valid permit displayed.

Formal note:
Should you later pursue this charge by way of litigation, note that service of any legal documents by email is expressly disallowed and you are not entitled to assume that the data in this dispute/appeal remains the current address for service in the future.

Yours faithfully,
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SchoolRunMum
post Wed, 19 Dec 2018 - 01:28
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Yes, we got there in the end. I did say already, why to use that template without chopping it apart!

QUOTE
I would use the MSE forum version of template appeal instead, from the NEWBIES thread there, because it includes a question about whether the VRN was recorded wrongly by their machine and if so it asks for a copy of the PDT machine list (this is evidence that will help you see that the issue was).


Your 'less wordy' version didn't ask for that evidence, and talked vaguely about a permit which was completely irrelevant to your case if it's a PDT car park.
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jagoico2000
post Tue, 25 Dec 2018 - 20:18
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Appeal submitted online
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jagoico2000
post Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 10:23
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I received the following rejection letter. Interestingly, they are using the Data Protection Act to not provide the information requested. A valid pay and display ticket was displayed and it was printed from a machine that requires you to enter the licence plate. Surely this constitutes Personally Identifiable Information under GDPR and they are required by law to provide this information on request? Should I complain to the ICO?

4 hours of parking were paid for and the pay and display ticket was put inside the car. No evidence has been provided to show that the car was parked without a valid pay and display ticket. They have only provided images of car entering and leaving the premises.

What should be my next step?










https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-...ual-indirectly/

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Jlc
post Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 10:30
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QUOTE (jagoico2000 @ Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 10:23) *
What should be my next step?

Use the POPLA code - they have failed to comply with PoFA so it's an easy win.

The ICO have stated that VRM's should be considered as PII - you are not strictly entitled to the logs of the machine (other than any that identity you as the keeper). They would be expected to produce them for a court claim mind - not that it's going to go that far...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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jagoico2000
post Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 10:36
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 10:30) *
QUOTE (jagoico2000 @ Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 10:23) *
What should be my next step?

Use the POPLA code - they have failed to comply with PoFA so it's an easy win.

The ICO have stated that VRM's should be considered as PII - you are not strictly entitled to the logs of the machine (other than any that identity you as the keeper). They would be expected to produce them for a court claim mind - not that it's going to go that far...



Which part of the PoFA have they failed to comply with? Provision of evidence?
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Jlc
post Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 10:38
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Whoops, sorry - I've just realised this one does.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 11:40
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Your VRM is PII, so you require they produce the logs showing YOUR VRM was recorded. THey can suitably shorten other VRMs purely to show they were recorded.
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jagoico2000
post Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 12:48
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So do I just jump to POPLA?
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