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Bus Lane PCN, Despite Temporary Road Signage Authorising Use
dave-o
post Fri, 2 Dec 2016 - 16:44
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The charming folk at Hammersmith and Fulham council have decided to put out temporary signage stating "USE BUS LANE" and then snap anyone using the bus lane. My trusting wife assumed that they wouldn't be so underhanded and as such has ended up with a PCN.

Firstly the PCN:





Sorry for the blurriness of the rear of the PCN, but it should be just about legible.


So far i have submitted a FOI to the council requesting details of the temporary signage at the location, particularly the "USE BUS LANE" sign that was there. I have also requested details of the amount of bus lane PCNs taken by that camera on that day, as well as the same day last year, for comparison.

I would appreciate help from the good people of Pepipoo on two main issues at this point:

1) I imagine this scenario has come up before. Do councils usually dig their feet in all the way to PATAS or are they likely to accept the informal appeal if they know there was temporary signage present?

2) Anything wrong with the wording on the PCN? The timescale statements on the back look a bit iffy to me but i admit i am a bit rusty on this these days.

Thanks


--------------------
Dave-o 3-0 LB Waltham Forest.
Goalscorers: B. Alighting 08', G. Fettered 34', I. Markings 42'


Dave-o 2-0 LB Islington
Goalscorers: V. Locus 82', I. Dates, 87'


Dave-o 1-0 LB Redbridge
Goalscorer: I. Markings 79'


Dave-o 1-0 LB sCamden
Goalscorer: I. Dates, 86'

Dave-o 1-0 LB Hammersmith & Fulham
Goalscorer: T. Signage, 19'
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post Fri, 2 Dec 2016 - 16:44
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 2 Dec 2016 - 17:29
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Welcome home!

Have you seen the video? Any signs?

Mick
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DancingDad
post Fri, 2 Dec 2016 - 20:57
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Welcome back Dave.
Getting some photos of the signs should guarantee a win at adjudication (as much as we ever can)
Councils can be block headed about it even with solid proof staring at them.

And what does the video show ?
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Incandescent
post Fri, 2 Dec 2016 - 21:02
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The mendacity of London councils, and also many other councils in the land, Nottingham City is another, never ceases to shock me. Their venality is legendary.
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dave-o
post Tue, 6 Dec 2016 - 20:56
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I'm trying to get hold of the video but the online system seems to be messing me around. I'll give them another 24 hours and then call them to demand a copy. I would assume that they've purposefully filmed it without the sign, but we'll see. The photos on the PCN are very dark so i wouldn't be surprised if the video's not much use.

The signs are no longer there so i can't snap them.

I'll post back as soon as i've got the video.

This post has been edited by dave-o: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 - 20:58


--------------------
Dave-o 3-0 LB Waltham Forest.
Goalscorers: B. Alighting 08', G. Fettered 34', I. Markings 42'


Dave-o 2-0 LB Islington
Goalscorers: V. Locus 82', I. Dates, 87'


Dave-o 1-0 LB Redbridge
Goalscorer: I. Markings 79'


Dave-o 1-0 LB sCamden
Goalscorer: I. Dates, 86'

Dave-o 1-0 LB Hammersmith & Fulham
Goalscorer: T. Signage, 19'
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Hippocrates
post Tue, 6 Dec 2016 - 21:10
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Require the TMO. Yes, this lot will go to PATAS. PCN is ok. And require the TMO for temporary signage. Re informal appeal: the legislation does not allow one but this lot do consider as do others. Get it in before the 14 days from date of the notice. Personally, even at this stage, I would put them on notice that you require a statement from the camera operator i.e. require it now.

This post has been edited by Hippocrates: Tue, 6 Dec 2016 - 21:18


--------------------
There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

Donald Rumsfeld

There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends PATAS, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know.

"Hippocrates"
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dave-o
post Thu, 8 Dec 2016 - 20:30
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I have viewed the video. The signage isn't visible, so i will be hoping the FOI request does have a record of it. However, it is clear a number of other vehicles are using the lane.

I will get a challenge in right now, as i believe i'm on my last day.

Re the TMO, is this something i submit another FOI for, or include with the challenge?


--------------------
Dave-o 3-0 LB Waltham Forest.
Goalscorers: B. Alighting 08', G. Fettered 34', I. Markings 42'


Dave-o 2-0 LB Islington
Goalscorers: V. Locus 82', I. Dates, 87'


Dave-o 1-0 LB Redbridge
Goalscorer: I. Markings 79'


Dave-o 1-0 LB sCamden
Goalscorer: I. Dates, 86'

Dave-o 1-0 LB Hammersmith & Fulham
Goalscorer: T. Signage, 19'
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DancingDad
post Thu, 8 Dec 2016 - 20:59
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Include in the challenge but specify the temporary traffic order or any works carried out under its general permissions.

I would also send a separate FOI as parking dept may (will) be a bit thick about supplying.
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Hippocrates
post Thu, 8 Dec 2016 - 23:20
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QUOTE (dave-o @ Thu, 8 Dec 2016 - 20:30) *
I have viewed the video. The signage isn't visible, so i will be hoping the FOI request does have a record of it. However, it is clear a number of other vehicles are using the lane.

I will get a challenge in right now, as i believe i'm on my last day.

Re the TMO, is this something i submit another FOI for, or include with the challenge?

Show the challenge. No FOIR necessary for TMO. E-mail them immediately and ask for it to be sent to the relevant department. Include it if you will.

QUOTE (dave-o @ Thu, 8 Dec 2016 - 20:30) *
I have viewed the video. The signage isn't visible, so i will be hoping the FOI request does have a record of it. However, it is clear a number of other vehicles are using the lane.

I will get a challenge in right now, as i believe i'm on my last day.

Re the TMO, is this something i submit another FOI for, or include with the challenge?

This is irrelevant. They must produce contemporary evidence.

QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 8 Dec 2016 - 20:59) *
Include in the challenge but specify the temporary traffic order or any works carried out under its general permissions.

I would also send a separate FOI as parking dept may (will) be a bit thick about supplying.


christian.constantinides@lbhf.gov.uk

re TMOs.

This post has been edited by Hippocrates: Thu, 8 Dec 2016 - 23:20


--------------------
There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

Donald Rumsfeld

There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends PATAS, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know.

"Hippocrates"
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dave-o
post Mon, 9 Jan 2017 - 11:23
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I think i missed Hippocrates' reply so sorry if i have overlooked anything valuable.

Anyway i have a rather useful FOI reply:
QUOTE
A traffic order was in place to use the bus lane from outside the old BBC TV Centre to the
bus stop opposite White City tube station for the northbound traffic. Clear signage was
deployed to advise motorists to use the bus lane up where the works ended.


LBHF haven't replied to my rep yet but if they do try to tough it out then it seems I have some powerful ammunition.

It's outrageous that they are still camera ticketing for bus lanes when signage like this is present. I am wondering whether the local papers would be interested in it.


--------------------
Dave-o 3-0 LB Waltham Forest.
Goalscorers: B. Alighting 08', G. Fettered 34', I. Markings 42'


Dave-o 2-0 LB Islington
Goalscorers: V. Locus 82', I. Dates, 87'


Dave-o 1-0 LB Redbridge
Goalscorer: I. Markings 79'


Dave-o 1-0 LB sCamden
Goalscorer: I. Dates, 86'

Dave-o 1-0 LB Hammersmith & Fulham
Goalscorer: T. Signage, 19'
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Incandescent
post Mon, 9 Jan 2017 - 11:36
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Don't wonder about the local papers, tell them about it. This council need to be shamed.
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DancingDad
post Mon, 9 Jan 2017 - 11:53
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Like you say, the answer to your reps will be interesting.

And as said, tell the papers, write to local councilors and MPs.
This is outrageous and, knowing that many simply pay a PCN that arrives, will have been a source of unlawful income.

Another FTI, number of PCNs served during time of temporary order ?
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dave-o
post Fri, 27 Jan 2017 - 16:30
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Crikey, an actual apology from LBHF?!

QUOTE
Thank you for writing to us about the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN). After carefully considering your case we have decided to cancel this PCN. I have noted your comments that the signage in place advised drivers to use the Bus Lane. Please accept my apologies for any inconvenience caused as a result of receiving this PCN.


I wonder if the FOI office warned them that I had made a request that would stitch them up if they tried it on any further.

I do feel quite angry actually, and had intended to try and get something in a local paper about them CCTV ticketing a bus lane while it has "use bus lane" signage. The second part of my FOI (comparing PCN amounts with the same day last year) showed a slightly lower amount on that day though, which seemed to detract from my point. I am still tempted to take it further though, it is disgraceful behaviour and i bet plenty of people didn't bother to challenge.

Thanks for the help folks.


*EDIT* I've just been thinking about the wording "I have noted your comments that the signage in place advised drivers to use the Bus Lane." rather than "I accept your comments that the signage in place advised drivers to use the Bus Lane.". Superb arse-covering, sir. When i have a moment i think i will write to the papers, MP etc. It would be a shame to waste a perfectly good FOI response.

This post has been edited by dave-o: Fri, 27 Jan 2017 - 16:41


--------------------
Dave-o 3-0 LB Waltham Forest.
Goalscorers: B. Alighting 08', G. Fettered 34', I. Markings 42'


Dave-o 2-0 LB Islington
Goalscorers: V. Locus 82', I. Dates, 87'


Dave-o 1-0 LB Redbridge
Goalscorer: I. Markings 79'


Dave-o 1-0 LB sCamden
Goalscorer: I. Dates, 86'

Dave-o 1-0 LB Hammersmith & Fulham
Goalscorer: T. Signage, 19'
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DancingDad
post Fri, 27 Jan 2017 - 17:15
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I would feel better in this sort of case if instead of the insincere apology, they wrote something like "Sorry, we cocked up and have therefore cancelled the PCN"

Good result Dave and yes, dinna waste a good FOI result.
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Hippocrates
post Fri, 27 Jan 2017 - 19:21
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Trust me: this lot are one of the worst. Get even.

This post has been edited by Hippocrates: Fri, 27 Jan 2017 - 19:21


--------------------
There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

Donald Rumsfeld

There are known knowns which, had we known, we would never have wished to know. It is known that this also applies to the known unknowns. However, when one attends PATAS, Mr Rumsfeld's idea that there are also unknown unknowns fails to apply because, anyone who is in the know, knows that unknown unknowns are purely a deception otherwise known as an aleatory experience or also known as a lottery. I know that I know this to be a fact and, in this knowledge, I know that I am fully prepared to present my case but, paradoxically, in full knowledge that the unknown unknowns may well apply in view of some adjudicators' lack of knowing what they ought to know.

"Hippocrates"
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