Help with PCN on University campus - mitigating circs |
Help with PCN on University campus - mitigating circs |
Sun, 2 Sep 2018 - 08:54
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 2 Sep 2018 Member No.: 99,685 |
Hi folks,
The driver of the car in question is currently a student at a UK University and holds an annual campus parking permit. The car was parked on campus last month for the driver to catch the train for a short trip away to visit a family member, intended to be only for a few days. During this time, serious mitigating circumstances occurred, which there's no point in mentioning as these seem to be irrelevant to both the parking firm and the appeals process. During this time, the driver had been assuming that their annual permit was still valid and the car would be fine where it was. The university website states 'yearly permits' and does not specify that this period is anything less than a normal calendar year. So the driver was shocked to discover that the car had attracted three PCNs from a company called First Parking. Because of the accident, the driver couldn't get back in time to take advantage of the lower charge, and now the cost has gone up to £60 per ticket. It was an honest mistake combined with mitigating circumstances. The driver would never have left the car there if they had known the permit was due to expire. The keeper has already appealed to FP, who of course rejected it, saying to appeal to POPLA. The keeper has also tried asking the university for help, but they claim that once it's with a private company, it's out of their control. Here's an image of the ticket: https://imgur.com/a/GHFk2ue (All three are the same). Thanks very much in advance for any guidance, and please let me know if anything else should be included. WBD This post has been edited by wangbadan1: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 10:35 |
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Sun, 2 Sep 2018 - 08:54
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Sun, 2 Sep 2018 - 09:48
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
So edit your post so that the identity of the driver cannot be inferred.
So what does the permit say about expiry? Perhaps post it up, suitable redacted. What do the signs say about parking charges, do they mention "per 24 hours" Did you identify the driver in your appeal? The university are basically "we can't be arsed" The parking company are their subcontractor and they have control. It looks like the tail is wagging the dog. This post has been edited by ostell: Sun, 2 Sep 2018 - 09:49 |
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Sun, 2 Sep 2018 - 16:27
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 2,053 Joined: 20 May 2013 Member No.: 62,052 |
Is the parking permit issued by the university or PF?
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Mon, 3 Sep 2018 - 07:26
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
Indeed, as a consumer if it states "yearly" or "annual" and does not specify "academic year" or similar then you are entitled to use the most common intepretation. CRA2015
IF SO Point out that by accessing your data, their agent has put the university in breach of the DPA2018 as they had no "reasonable cause". Your permit was still valid. But we would need to see EXACTLY what it sys. |
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Mon, 3 Sep 2018 - 16:32
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 2 Sep 2018 Member No.: 99,685 |
Hi, thanks for the replies so far. In answer to your questions, here goes:
Identity in the original post has been edited out. Decided not wise to post an image of the permit because it is watermarked with the logo of the university. (It only includes an expiry date, plus the words 'Annual Permit'. The driver purchased it in late October 2017. This is very misleading, because people tend to keep an idea of the full 12 months in their minds and may forget to check once the permit is stuck onto the car. In addition, on the university website (image attached), there is no mention of 'Academic year' (screenshot attached), only the words 'permit year' and 'year' (not clear at all). Permits are issued by the university, nothing to do with FP. Here is the image of the wording: https://imgur.com/a/iCLvS7U The website section on charges does not mention anything about 'per 24 hours'. It states the following: £1 per hour (max 6 hour stay) from 8am-5pm Mon to Fri (but free after 5pm) £2 for the whole day on Saturdays Free all day Sunday/bank hols Also here is a photo of the parking sign in the uni car park (NB this was not clearly visible from the area where the car was parked). Can provide a higher res image tomorrow if needed. https://imgur.com/a/c6bQiRL Unfortunately, the driver was mentioned in the appeal (as didn't know any better). For what it's worth, the driver is fully prepared to write to their local MP about this disgusting practice of allowing a predatory private firm to penalise students who have clear mitigating circumstances outside of their control. The university owes its students a duty of care, and refusing to step in for a case like this is surely a derogation of that duty. Thanks again for any further input, this forum is a lifesaver. This post has been edited by wangbadan1: Mon, 3 Sep 2018 - 16:45 |
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Mon, 3 Sep 2018 - 17:11
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
Need a better definition of the conditions on that sign. Just can't read them.
Well no mention of per 24 hours so when the conditions were allegedly breached then they could not be beached again so only one charge would be allowed. So what expiry date is on the permit? And what days was your car left there. |
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Mon, 3 Sep 2018 - 17:39
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,768 Joined: 17 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,602 |
If the annual permits run from October to July how does anyone park in August & September?
-------------------- British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012 |
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Mon, 3 Sep 2018 - 19:28
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,898 Joined: 15 Dec 2007 From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town. Member No.: 16,066 |
If the annual permits run from October to July how does anyone park in August & September? No permit required????? -------------------- Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Mon, 3 Sep 2018 - 20:38
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 2 Sep 2018 Member No.: 99,685 |
Thanks again for taking the time to reflect on this case. Here are the new answers and extra photos.
The permit expires at the end of July, which is printed on it. The driver bought the car in late October 2017, at which point they purchased a permit. Therefore, the permit duration aspect is confusing and the university website is misleading to readers by using the language 'annual permit', 'permit year', and 'year', with no additional clarifications. The driver cannot remember the exact date when they bought the permit. The car was issued with penalties between the dates of Aug 8 to 17th, so ten days. This was during the summer holidays and the car park was not operating at full capacity. Visitors cannot use this car park between Monday to Friday anyway, so no loss was caused to the university in this sense. Here are higher res images of the FP car park signage: https://imgur.com/a/SU1atpK https://imgur.com/a/IHvS54B Two more points noted this evening: 1) the FP signage is placed very high up (at least a foot above the head of an average height person), and hence the small print is unintelligible. It is certainly not readable from a moving car, let alone safely. 2) the area of the car park where the car in question was parked had no signage at all within easy driver view. This is an image of the area where the car was parked. https://imgur.com/a/7ZTZGSs Do you think there's anything here that can be used for POPLA? |
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Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 03:56
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,195 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
Your first post still says who appealed, change that NOW as it tells FP who the driver is!
You as Keeper ('I') appealed. This post has been edited by The Rookie: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 03:56 -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 06:45
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,768 Joined: 17 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,602 |
If the annual permits run from October to July how does anyone park in August & September? No permit required????? The OP got a "fine" for not displaying a valid permit so either nobody is able to park in August & September or there are other annual permits that do include August & September. -------------------- British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012 |
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Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 08:19
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,195 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
If the annual permits run from October to July how does anyone park in August & September? No permit required????? The OP got a "fine" for not displaying a valid permit so either nobody is able to park in August & September or there are other annual permits that do include August & September. Or there are further T&C's OR there are different types of permit depending on whether you need 12months (staff, post grad etc. ) or 10 months (regular student)? -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 09:14
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
If it is only the permit whcih details an expiry, not the intiial site where you buy (how is a permit bought? Online?) then you can rely upon the information given at the time of contract formtion, which is NOT whatever the permit states as that comes AFTER the contract has concluded.
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Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 10:39
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 2 Sep 2018 Member No.: 99,685 |
Permits can't be purchased online, only in person at the uni library. The driver has to bring in all their physical documents.
The only info I can find on the uni website about the 'Standard permit', is the following: "If you are a student who is on campus most days, a Standard permit is probably best for you. A Standard permit is valid in all permit holder car parks." [NB, in the case of a PhD "student" (which the university also considers 'junior faculty') there's no 'official' summer holiday. These individuals access campus facilities all year round just like staff]. Then, the part on how to apply states the following: "You will need your: University library card vehicle insurance documents (including certificate of motor insurance) proof of address that verifies where you live during term-time You must pay your permit in full. You can pay with a credit or debit card." The part on permit prices states this: "Permit costs are normally adjusted at the start of each permit year in line with April's Retail Price Index (RPI). The following permits cost £136.80 per year: Standard permit Car Share permit Electric Vehicle permit" This is all the info I can find on the university website. At the time of purchase, the driver didn't receive any further explanation of T&Cs, either physically or by email. In addition, they did not receive any proof or confirmation of payment. Nothing on the website says anything at all about different durations of permits. You'd think if they're in the business of issuing "fines", they'd also be clear about the T&Cs... This post has been edited by wangbadan1: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 11:05 |
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Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 10:54
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 2 Sep 2018 Member No.: 99,685 |
If it is only the permit whcih details an expiry, not the intiial site where you buy (how is a permit bought? Online?) then you can rely upon the information given at the time of contract formtion, which is NOT whatever the permit states as that comes AFTER the contract has concluded. Zero information was given at the time of 'contract formation', which happened in person, not online. There is no online facility for buying or renewing permits. |
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Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 11:06
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
So the student bought a yearly permit, was not told any different at the time
Was the permit handed over there and then or sent later? Was the permit sealed in an envelope etc so it couldnt be seen until after the contract was concluded? Do you see what dtails are needed... |
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Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 11:15
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 2 Sep 2018 Member No.: 99,685 |
So the student bought a yearly permit, was not told any different at the time Was the permit handed over there and then or sent later? Was the permit sealed in an envelope etc so it couldnt be seen until after the contract was concluded? Do you see what dtails are needed... Yep, so the permit was handed over there and then, not in an envelope but in a slipcase-type thing. It couldn't be seen until the student affixed it to the car. No further info or explanation was offered at the time of purchase, no T&Cs, no nothing. Are there any other details needed to reinforce this? To my mind, it seems a cavalier way of handling things, especially with such severe 'invoices' at stake. Note, the permit process is entirely handled by the university, nothing to do with FP. |
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Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 11:31
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
So
- the university sells the permits - they state ANNUAL permits are available, and the student paid for an ANNUAL permit - nothing was stated to the student at point of sale, to contradict the notion that annual means the normal plain English meaning of annual - the expiry was not brought to the attention at the time - as such the CRA2015 states the consumer (student) is able to FULLY rely on the information given about permits by the univeristy, the vendor of the permits, which is that they are annual - october to october, in this case. The expiry on the permit is irreevant - as this was after payment and the contract were concluded. The permit cannot add additional rules not present before sale. - in additon, only one ticket could have been issued,a s the signs only allow for ONE breach not one per 24 hours So you TELL the university: 1 ) they must cancel these charges. The university sold an annual permit, in October. It therefore expired in October the following year and therefore was valid at the time. That the universirty has a different understanding of "annual" is not the responsibility of the consumer, as this difference was not brought to the attention of the consumer at the time of purchase. In any case of ambiguity in meaning, the most favourable interpretation MUST be used. CRA2015. The student was entitled to rely on the website stating "annual". Again, CRA2015. Therefore there was no breach of parking regulations or permit conditions. The permit was valid. IF they disagree, they will need to explain - a) Where teh difference was brought to the explicit attention of the consumer. Note, screenshots of the website have been taken (DO IT!) - b) Why the difrerence was not brought to the attention at the time the contract was formed, ie when the permit was purchased. This will require a certified Witeness Statement from the vendor, signed under a penalty of perjury. - c) why the CRA2015 does not apply to a simple consumer contract 2) Their agent has breached the DPA on 3 occassions, by accessing the DVLA Keeper database without due cause. This also means the university, who are fully liable for the actions of their agents, are liable for the damages caused by the 3 breaches. If the university fails to cancel the charges, and instructs their agent to cease harassment immediately, you reserve all legal options available to you, including but not limited to a civil claim agaisnt the university and their agents for damages for the breach of the DPA and harassment, for a sum no less than £500. |
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Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 12:17
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 2 Sep 2018 Member No.: 99,685 |
Thanks Nosferatu1001. It indeed makes sense to challenge the uni on this. I'll put your advice into action and will report back with the results asap.
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Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 12:30
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
Only do the last IF you are going to do so, and you are happy in case it causes issues. It shouldnt do, but be aware ALL litigation carries risk.
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