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2 PCNs to my old address - facing bailiff notices now
clampedbydetails
post Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 11:30
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Hi forum,

This is my first post in the forum and I hope to get some help

I bought my car in June 2017 from a used vehicle dealer. On the day of purchase i provided my details of ID and address history. I was residing at my address in E1W, London. After the purchase, I did not receive any V5C to my address.

This May when i was unable to renew my road tax online as I did not have a V5C.
I called up DVLA who told me they had a wrong address on my registration, they had registered my car against a very old address. They made the amendment on the phone and also accepted the payment for the road tax. They also sent a V5C to my right (current) address.

Couple of days back I received a message from my landlord from the old address on an urgent notice he received at the address. This was a note from the bailiffs for a payment of £790. On further investigation and calling up TFL and TEC I was told this was for 2 traffic violations, both for yellow box junction from July and August 2017.

All the correspondences from the day of offences were sent to my old address and the case was transferred to TEC and bailiffs.

I have now filled in the PE2 and PE3 and explained my case that I did not receive any letter or notification and the address on my registration was wrong without any fault of my own (even after submitting the right address to the car dealer).

Could you all please look at my case and let me know what should be the best way forward.
Has anyone faced something similar ?

Appreciate some guidance.

This post has been edited by clampedbydetails: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 11:31
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post Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 11:30
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stamfordman
post Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 11:54
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Have you sent the forms? If so all you can do is wait and see if it is accepted.

It was though your responsibility to sort the V5C when you didn't get it.
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Incandescent
post Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 12:10
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Unfortunately this is what happens if you're a bit casual about vehicle documents ! I have to say I'm surprised you let things slide re the V5 for nearly 12 months. You have carried out the correct procedure for an Out-of-Time Statutory Declaration, but a lot depends on what you said in it, and also the key fact that the council can, and invariably will oppose it, (unless you have a commitment from them that they won't). If they oppose it, TEC will reject it, and then you're back the bailiffs. After such a rejection, you have one further option which is to have the papers assessed by a County Court judge. This costs £100 for a papers review, and if you want a personal interview, £255 with the judge "in chambers".

When/if your OOT is rejected come back here.
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Neil B
post Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 00:21
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If you have a case at bailiff stage and ask for help it's a good idea to respond to any questions members ask, when
you've read them; particularly crucial ones like >
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 12:54) *
Have you sent the forms?

It's also basic good manners.

If you haven't yet e-mailed them, show us.

----

QUOTE (clampedbydetails @ Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 12:30) *
I have now filled in the PE2 and PE3

2XPE2 and 2XPE3 surely?

And sworn/witnessed ?


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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clampedbydetails
post Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 10:19
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 11:54) *
Have you sent the forms? If so all you can do is wait and see if it is accepted.

It was though your responsibility to sort the V5C when you didn't get it.


Apologies for the delayed response. I agree keeping a track of V5C was my responsibility but I was unaware of a possibility of wrong address.

Yes I have filled in, witnessed from a solicitor and sent the PE2 and PE3. I checked with TEC yesterday and they confirmed they have informed TFL to put my case on hold.
I was told it will take 6 weeks for them to know if the appeal was accepted.


QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 00:21) *
If you have a case at bailiff stage and ask for help it's a good idea to respond to any questions members ask, when
you've read them; particularly crucial ones like >
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 12:54) *
Have you sent the forms?

It's also basic good manners.

If you haven't yet e-mailed them, show us.

----

QUOTE (clampedbydetails @ Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 12:30) *
I have now filled in the PE2 and PE3

2XPE2 and 2XPE3 surely?

And sworn/witnessed ?


apologies for the delayed response. yes i filled in witnessed and sent 2 copies of PE2 PE3.
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Neil B
post Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 15:11
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Ok, all good.

You can still show them if you want members to comment on your chances and, as you say, how
this might move forward.

I have limited time myself this week but plenty of others here.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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clampedbydetails
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 10:23
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 16:11) *
Ok, all good.

You can still show them if you want members to comment on your chances and, as you say, how
this might move forward.

I have limited time myself this week but plenty of others here.


Thanks for all the support happy.gif . I have attached the PE2 PE3 that I have submitted

I had no reference or support in filling the forms and I discovered this forum only later. I hope I have not made many mistakes and I wish I had found this group sooner.
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hcandersen
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 11:27
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So, you have a habit of contravening YBJ restrictions and were caught twice within 2 months of buying your car.

DVLA had the wrong keeper address for you for 12 months....

..which raises the question whether any other penalties have been sent to the wrong address.

Your old landlord knew how to contact you after 2 1/2 years (this is interesting in itself because if they knew where you lived then why didn’t they contact you when the first correspondence arrived, after all at least 6 statutory notices would have been sent to that address?)

You used the term ‘appeal’ in your last post. This is incorrect. What you are doing has no bearing on the contravention, you are simply trying to get back into the enforcement and appeals process.

Have you contacted the dealer and enquired what address they supplied to DVLA. For others, is this even the dealer’s duty or does it fall to the buyer as with road tax?

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Neil B
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 11:39
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 12:27) *
Have you contacted the dealer and enquired what address they supplied to DVLA.

Yeah, I'm not clear on what actually went wrong either --- and maybe neither will TEC be.
QUOTE (clampedbydetails @ Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 12:30) *
i provided my details of ID and address history.

History?
Did your ID include an address?


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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clampedbydetails
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 12:43
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 12:39) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 12:27) *
Have you contacted the dealer and enquired what address they supplied to DVLA.

Yeah, I'm not clear on what actually went wrong either --- and maybe neither will TEC be.
QUOTE (clampedbydetails @ Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 12:30) *
i provided my details of ID and address history.

History?
Did your ID include an address?


I called up the dealer and they are not sure what went wrong when I inquired them of the address supplied. they asked me to call the DVLA.
My previous landlord did not have my address and messaged me on my phone number. he said he did not open any previous ones as they were marked for me and opened only the one last week as it was marked Urgent.
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clampedbydetails
post Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 17:59
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Sat, 23 Jun 2018 - 16:11) *
Ok, all good.

You can still show them if you want members to comment on your chances and, as you say, how
this might move forward.

I have limited time myself this week but plenty of others here.



Neil, thanks for your advice, if you get some time could you kindly review the PE2, PE3 I attached earlier and let me know the chances and how this might progress?


QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 12:27) *
For others, is this even the dealer’s duty or does it fall to the buyer as with road tax?


Does anyone have a view on this?

I forgot to reply earlier, in the sales receipt I received from the motor dealer, the address noted is the right address (my current address) - somehow the address the seller sent to the DVLA has the wrong address (my old address).
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Neil B
post Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 18:05
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I will comment when I get a mo but busy at mo.

Nothing can happen soon anyway.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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cp8759
post Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 18:18
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QUOTE (clampedbydetails @ Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 18:59) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 12:27) *
For others, is this even the dealer’s duty or does it fall to the buyer as with road tax?

Does anyone have a view on this?

I forgot to reply earlier, in the sales receipt I received from the motor dealer, the address noted is the right address (my current address) - somehow the address the seller sent to the DVLA has the wrong address (my old address).

If you didn't receive the V5C after a few weeks you should have made enquiries with the DVLA. It's a criminal offence to use a vehicle on a road or other public place where the details held on the DVLA register are incorrect, see section 43C of the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/22/section/43C)

Two defences are available for the circumstances where a vehicle has recently been bought:

"(3)It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) to show (as the case may be)—
(a)that there was no reasonable opportunity, before the material time, to furnish the name and address of the keeper of the vehicle, or
(b)that there was no reasonable opportunity, before the material time, to furnish particulars correcting the incorrect particulars.

(4)It is also a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) to show—
(a)that he had reasonable grounds for believing, or that it was reasonable for him to expect, that the name and address of the keeper or the other particulars of registration (as the case may be) were correctly recorded in the register, or
(b)that any exception prescribed in regulations under this section is met.
"

After 12 months have passed, there has obviously been a reasonable opportunity for the register to be updated, and if you've not had the V5C in the post it can be argued that you can't reasonably expect that the correct details are on the register.

So to answer the question, yes the responsibility for passing the correct details in the first instance may well rest with the dealer, but even if that is the case, the responsibility shifts to the keeper once a "reasonable" amount of time has elapsed without the V5C turning up. There's no clear-cut deadline, but I would have thought that 12 months is well beyond what would be a "reasonable" amount of time to wait, given the V5C normally arrives in 2 to 4 weeks.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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clampedbydetails
post Wed, 4 Jul 2018 - 11:31
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 19:18) *
QUOTE (clampedbydetails @ Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 18:59) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 12:27) *
For others, is this even the dealer’s duty or does it fall to the buyer as with road tax?

Does anyone have a view on this?

I forgot to reply earlier, in the sales receipt I received from the motor dealer, the address noted is the right address (my current address) - somehow the address the seller sent to the DVLA has the wrong address (my old address).

If you didn't receive the V5C after a few weeks you should have made enquiries with the DVLA. It's a criminal offence to use a vehicle on a road or other public place where the details held on the DVLA register are incorrect, see section 43C of the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/22/section/43C)

Two defences are available for the circumstances where a vehicle has recently been bought:

"(3)It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) to show (as the case may be)—
(a)that there was no reasonable opportunity, before the material time, to furnish the name and address of the keeper of the vehicle, or
(b)that there was no reasonable opportunity, before the material time, to furnish particulars correcting the incorrect particulars.

(4)It is also a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) to show—
(a)that he had reasonable grounds for believing, or that it was reasonable for him to expect, that the name and address of the keeper or the other particulars of registration (as the case may be) were correctly recorded in the register, or
(b)that any exception prescribed in regulations under this section is met.
"

After 12 months have passed, there has obviously been a reasonable opportunity for the register to be updated, and if you've not had the V5C in the post it can be argued that you can't reasonably expect that the correct details are on the register.

So to answer the question, yes the responsibility for passing the correct details in the first instance may well rest with the dealer, but even if that is the case, the responsibility shifts to the keeper once a "reasonable" amount of time has elapsed without the V5C turning up. There's no clear-cut deadline, but I would have thought that 12 months is well beyond what would be a "reasonable" amount of time to wait, given the V5C normally arrives in 2 to 4 weeks.



thanks for your response.
on the below point, I had a reasonable ground to believe that the registration details are accurate. The address on my sales receipt was accurately recorded.

I called up DVLA to check what was the wrong address recorded previously but they did not disclose. I have started to believe it could be a wrong flat number or a minor character wrong.
The bayliff could reach my old address somehow as no one fron DVLA, Motor dealer, TFL could possibly have that address.

(4)It is also a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) to show—
(a)that he had reasonable grounds for believing, or that it was reasonable for him to expect, that the name and address of the keeper or the other particulars of registration (as the case may be) were correctly recorded in the register, or
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cp8759
post Wed, 4 Jul 2018 - 11:47
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QUOTE (clampedbydetails @ Wed, 4 Jul 2018 - 12:31) *
thanks for your response.
on the below point, I had a reasonable ground to believe that the registration details are accurate. The address on my sales receipt was accurately recorded.

You had reasonable grounds to believe that the registration was accurate in the immediate aftermath of the vehicle purchase. After several months, and certainly after a year, that belief ceases to be reasonable, as a V5C would normally arrive within four weeks. I'm afraid to say that it's unlikely a criminal court would accept your belief was reasonable if the V5C had still not been received a year after you bought the car; if you were charged with that offence my advice would be to plead guilty as you would have no defence.

For the same reason, if your OOT is rejected, I think it will be an uphill struggle to persuade a district judge that your conduct was reasonable.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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clampedbydetails
post Wed, 4 Jul 2018 - 14:57
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 4 Jul 2018 - 12:47) *
QUOTE (clampedbydetails @ Wed, 4 Jul 2018 - 12:31) *
thanks for your response.
on the below point, I had a reasonable ground to believe that the registration details are accurate. The address on my sales receipt was accurately recorded.

You had reasonable grounds to believe that the registration was accurate in the immediate aftermath of the vehicle purchase. After several months, and certainly after a year, that belief ceases to be reasonable, as a V5C would normally arrive within four weeks. I'm afraid to say that it's unlikely a criminal court would accept your belief was reasonable if the V5C had still not been received a year after you bought the car; if you were charged with that offence my advice would be to plead guilty as you would have no defence.

For the same reason, if your OOT is rejected, I think it will be an uphill struggle to persuade a district judge that your conduct was reasonable.



Essentially what you are suggesting is if the OOT is rejected, I must simply pay the entire amount as challenging it any further won't be successful. sad.gif
Do yo believe the TEC can charge me further for this?

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cp8759
post Wed, 4 Jul 2018 - 15:05
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QUOTE (clampedbydetails @ Wed, 4 Jul 2018 - 15:57) *
Essentially what you are suggesting is if the OOT is rejected, I must simply pay the entire amount as challenging it any further won't be successful. sad.gif
Do yo believe the TEC can charge me further for this?

I think the odds are against you, but maybe see what others on here say. Whether you think it's worth challenging anyway is ultimately up to you. I don't know what you mean by "charge me further", all the charges are prescribed by law.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 4 Jul 2018 - 17:50
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This account is becoming ever more confusing:

All the correspondences from the day of offences were sent to my old address and the case was transferred to TEC and bailiffs.

So what ‘wrong’ address are you talking about here?

i provided my details of ID and address history

History?

And now..

My previous landlord did not have my address and messaged me on my phone number. he said he did not open any previous ones as they were marked for me....

So knowing there was mail for you, probably brown envelope to boot, meant nothing. He just sat on his hands?


Confused.com!
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clampedbydetails
post Wed, 4 Jul 2018 - 21:17
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 4 Jul 2018 - 18:50) *
This account is becoming ever more confusing:

All the correspondences from the day of offences were sent to my old address and the case was transferred to TEC and bailiffs.

So what ‘wrong’ address are you talking about here?

i provided my details of ID and address history

History?

And now..

My previous landlord did not have my address and messaged me on my phone number. he said he did not open any previous ones as they were marked for me....

So knowing there was mail for you, probably brown envelope to boot, meant nothing. He just sat on his hands?


Confused.com!



apologies if my explanations havent been clear. I have been making some assumptions as I am not able to come to a clear conclusion. Let me replay the whole thing (as I understand it)

In June last year i purchased a car from a motor dealer. While purchasing a standard set of documents were required, My passport and my driving licence. my driving licence has my current address (E1W) on it. I got a sales receipt which also has the same address.
I understood they submitted the ownership transfer online to DVLA online (assumption)

After 6-8 weeks in july and Aug I did not have tue V5C but it skipped my mind to keep a track afterwards.
In these 2 months I had 2 traffic violations registered and correspondences sent to some* address (i dont know which)

In Apr/May this year I started checking for procedure for renewing my vehicle tax and called the DVLA. While talking to the agent i realized they had a wrong address on record (i believe it was a minor mistake like wrong flat number as they simply corrected it on phone)
I got my new V5C paid my tax

on June 20th i got a whatsapp from my previous landlord. I lived in his house till end of 2016. He told me about a letter from bailiffs and sent a picture. I immediately called the bailiffs and asked them details and found out about the contravention.
i applied for OOT as directed by the TEC rep.

now what i am not clear is:
1- how did the bailiffs get my old address. do they have a way of locating people
2- what was the address on DVLA before correcting
3- is there more penalty that I might have to pay beyond what is already asked ?


this is exactly how it happened
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