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Chicane accident liability, Expensive six weeks
notmeatloaf
post Sat, 16 Jun 2018 - 17:15
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Just a quick check to make sure I'm not going mad.

I managed to come off my bike here today, nice wrist fracture which will probably involve an operation on Monday to fix. Six weeks of freelance work cancelled.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6413784,-1....3312!8i6656

The whole thing was caught on CCTV so little dispute about what happened.

I was travelling in the direction of the camera e.g had priority. Two vehicles approached the chicane from the other direction. Vehicle one decides to chance it and floor it through so I ease off. Car two hesitates so I commit to go through. At the last moment they decide to try and floor it through too. I slam on the brakes but too late and miss their offside wing by a few inches alongside the last driveway on the left by the wooden fence.

The CCTV shows would 100% of collided with the car if I hadn't braked and come off.

Car two driver says that there was no impact so I fell off my bike independently. Promptly scarpers before the police arrive.

Will post CCTV when I get it. In a situation of either cancelling lots of work for six weeks (expensive) or getting taxis everywhere (expensive, I work on four different sites 30 miles apart plus would be significantly inhibited with a cast anyway). Would welcome thoughts as to whether insurance is likely to be simple or if they will also drag their heels due to no actual impact.

This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Sat, 16 Jun 2018 - 17:18
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post Sat, 16 Jun 2018 - 17:15
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DancingDad
post Mon, 9 Jul 2018 - 19:50
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Mon, 9 Jul 2018 - 20:26) *
.........A pithy rule to avoid an accident with someone who accelerates rather than brakes into you whilst stationary... I'm not so sure. Huge magnet?
While I accept that you were stationary when the grey car hit you, immediately prior you were heading into the danger zone, braking some seconds, fractions of seconds before impact when you realised the grey car was moving.
So pithy rule seems to be don't pedal like the clappers towards twonkers.
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notmeatloaf
post Mon, 9 Jul 2018 - 20:05
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Not really in denial.

If the advice is, "slow down significantly for every chicane", or "riding 15mph is too fast in built up areas", or whatever people seem to be struggling to say, then I will ignore the advice and accept the tiny risk of it reoccuring in exchange for still being able to ride at a speed I feel appropriate.

In the end the only thing I really cared about was liability from an insurance perspective. I'll readily admit that on a pushbike or in a car I make a small trade off in safety for speed. Otherwise I wouldn't be riding a road bike, or even worse I would be driving a Volvo.

QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 9 Jul 2018 - 20:50) *
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Mon, 9 Jul 2018 - 20:26) *
.........A pithy rule to avoid an accident with someone who accelerates rather than brakes into you whilst stationary... I'm not so sure. Huge magnet?
While I accept that you were stationary when the grey car hit you, immediately prior you were heading into the danger zone, braking some seconds, fractions of seconds before impact when you realised the grey car was moving.
So pithy rule seems to be don't pedal like the clappers towards twonkers.

Don't pedal like the clappers towards Audis. Got it! wink.gif
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Mat_Shamus
post Mon, 9 Jul 2018 - 21:55
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Mon, 9 Jul 2018 - 20:26) *
Any accident is foreseeable and has alternate outcomes in hindsight.


This is exactly the point i've been trying to make. The few posters here who said they don't slow down at every junction unless they think the motorist might pull out, however when ever someone has posted a video on other social media / forums of a motorist pulling out a give way randomly and unexpected there are always people who still blame the car already on the road with priority. "you were going too fast..you should have slowed down just in case they pulled out etc"
If they swerve to try and avoid an accident and still have it they claim they should have braked harder. If they brake harder and cannot avoid it, then people claim they should have swerved

Every incident person in an accident can take action to mitigate the damage in hindsight apparently.


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big_mac
post Mon, 9 Jul 2018 - 22:15
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Mon, 9 Jul 2018 - 20:26) *
Any accident is foreseeable and has alternate outcomes in hindsight.

And many accidents are foreseeable with a little foresight. I think this is probably one of them.

If a similar situation occurs in future, will you again head blindly into the chicane, at the same speed, still hoping that the other driver has seen you and will stay still?

This post has been edited by big_mac: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 - 22:19
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DancingDad
post Mon, 9 Jul 2018 - 23:00
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QUOTE (Mat_Shamus @ Mon, 9 Jul 2018 - 22:55) *
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Mon, 9 Jul 2018 - 20:26) *
Any accident is foreseeable and has alternate outcomes in hindsight.


This is exactly the point i've been trying to make. The few posters here who said they don't slow down at every junction unless they think the motorist might pull out, however when ever someone has posted a video on other social media / forums of a motorist pulling out a give way randomly and unexpected there are always people who still blame the car already on the road with priority. "you were going too fast..you should have slowed down just in case they pulled out etc"
If they swerve to try and avoid an accident and still have it they claim they should have braked harder. If they brake harder and cannot avoid it, then people claim they should have swerved

Every incident person in an accident can take action to mitigate the damage in hindsight apparently.


I've always liked the "you were travelling too fast" accusation.... If you could see I was travelling too fast, WTF were you doing pulling out !!!
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Spandex
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 09:25
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Our odds of being in an accident are massively determined by outside influences that are beyond our direct control and your skill, or lack of it, are not as big a factor as you think. Statistically, it's likely that each of us will be in at least one accident, and it's very likely to involve something we not only could have predicted, but something that we have successfully predicted numerous times before. That's the issue. No matter how much we think we're conscientiously observing and predicting the majority of hazards, we're really not. We're catching a percentage of them and then using that fact to massively over-estimate our abilities to do so. As a driver (or cyclist) you won't see every hazard. Even the things that you know can be hazards (like drivers chancing it at chicanes), you won't see them every time. But unfortunately it's likely that you'll think you're better at spotting hazards than you are because you've spotted a lot of them and you've not had a crash yet. But that's not the same thing. By definition, you don't notice the hazards that you didn't spot, so unless one crashes into you, you only ever get to see your successes. Which is why all drivers think they're better at driving than they are.

So to take an accident like the OPs, rewind it and say "well I know that drivers sometimes do that, so I would have predicted it" is foolish at best. You're kidding yourselves. The best you can say is you might have predicted it. Anyone who says otherwise isn't impressing me with their driving talent, they're just being naive.
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big_mac
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 14:45
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QUOTE (Spandex @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 10:25) *
So to take an accident like the OPs, rewind it and say "well I know that drivers sometimes do that, so I would have predicted it" is foolish at best.

I think it's not nearly as foolish as saying 'well I know that drivers sometimes do that, but I will assume they won't do it this time'.
What I may have done is not relevant, as I certainly wouldn't have been cycling at that speed anyway!

You seem to be arguing that trying to predict hazards is either pointless, or actually makes you less safe. I guess that is where we ultimately have differing opinions.



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notmeatloaf
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 15:36
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Ridiculous. Driving or cycling anywhere relies on drivers not doing things you know they can do. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to travel on a road with any other road users, as the chance of someone turning right in front of you, or misjudging an overtake and crushing you, or overtaking around a blind bend, would require you to travel at a speed where it is not actually possible to ride or drive.

And again, you say it was too fast, without mentioning what is a safe speed to approach a chicane in a 30mph limit. The stopping distance for my car and bike are comparable so it will be useful for me when driving too. Currently I approach them at 20mph in my car, is that too fast?
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big_mac
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 16:10
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 16:36) *
Ridiculous. Driving or cycling anywhere relies on drivers not doing things you know they can do. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to travel on a road with any other road users, as the chance of someone turning right in front of you, or misjudging an overtake and crushing you, or overtaking around a blind bend, would require you to travel at a speed where it is not actually possible to ride or drive.

There is no need for the silly generalisation. You could have guessed the car would move - it's a frequently observed move, unlike the other things you mention. And, if you had guessed early enough, you would have had no problem dealing with it. Again, unlike all of your other imagined scenarios.

QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 16:36) *
And again, you say it was too fast

No, I have never said that.
I did say that you should not have assumed that the car you could no longer see was staying still. (You even acknowledged this yourself at one point.)
If you had not made that assumption, then one way you could have dealt with that was to slow down and prepare to stop until you could see clearly, but I daresay that wasn't the only reasonable possibility.

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Spandex
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:01
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QUOTE (big_mac @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 15:45) *
You seem to be arguing that trying to predict hazards is either pointless, or actually makes you less safe. I guess that is where we ultimately have differing opinions.

How you got that from what I wrote, I'll never know.

Trying to predict hazards is something we all should do. I am also certain it is something we all do do (to some extent). My point is that you constantly miss hazards even when you're trying to predict and spot them. You just don't realise that you're constantly missing them so you convince yourself that you're catching everything because you're a conscientious driver.
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notmeatloaf
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:17
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If you say you wouldn't have been cycling at that speed it presumably means you would be cycling at a slower speed. Or a faster speed. Seeing as speed is easily quantifiable then I would imagine you could place a figure on what speed you would approach the chicane, from what distance?

As I said it will be useful for me driving as well. in fact I should probably approach slower in a car, as less chance of squeezing out the way.
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big_mac
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:25
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 18:17) *
If you say you wouldn't have been cycling at that speed it presumably means you would be cycling at a slower speed.

Oh, I see what you mean... Yes - I would be cycling at a very much slower speed.
Probably about 5mph, it depends on how my knee is feeling...
It was just a whimsical observation, no judgement intended!
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baggins1234
post Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 15:11
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 14:06) *
We get training on exactly what you say, proceed with caution, be aware that there is no guarantee you have been seen


From a different thread.

Oh the irony..... biggrin.gif
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notmeatloaf
post Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 15:22
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It hardly requires much thought to realise that the caution you need when driving an ambulance through a red light is different to when you are travelling normally along a road.

Just as you need to be more cautious when passing a school at kicking out time compared to driving along a motorway at 3am. Risk assessment is pretty much the most basic skill for a driver.
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baggins1234
post Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 15:30
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 16:22) *
It hardly requires much thought to realise that the caution you need when driving an ambulance through a red light is different to when you are travelling normally along a road.

Just as you need to be more cautious when passing a school at kicking out time compared to driving along a motorway at 3am. Risk assessment is pretty much the most basic skill for a driver.


And a cyclist
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notmeatloaf
post Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 16:52
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I think this has been done to death but as a cyclist, driver or motorcyclist I view the risk of a driver both not giving way at a chicane and then also not braking when a head on collision became evident is very very very small and so the need to expect it at every chicane is very very very small.

Other people have different assessments. I leave considerably more distance then almost all drivers in a large part because I had a very nasty T-bone collision by the car in front of me and stopped because of that distance. Other drivers seem to rely on using the space whilst the car in front brakes rather than a full highway code stopping distance. I wouldn't be bold enough to say my risk assessments are better or worse, just different.

This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 16:53
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southpaw82
post Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 18:23
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 17:52) *
I think this has been done to death

I wish this thread would just die. Cycling threads are always the same.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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notmeatloaf
post Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 15:47
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I thought I would update this with the outcome.

First the police sent a report with totally the wrong accident. Wrong location, wrong narrative, wrong injuries.

I emailed to ask them to look at it again. I got an email back confirming the right location. And then, radio silence for six weeks whilst they investigated it.

Finally, at 2.30pm on the last day of the six months they emailed a new report which said there had been no collision at all, and they weren't sure which vehicle was involved anyway. Despite the driver confirming the repair bill had been expensive.

So there you are. I'm quite certain the timing was coincidental and the driver doesn't work for the police.
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Mat_Shamus
post Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 15:53
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That's not the best outcome but at least that won't have any impact on the insurance pay out i hope? (i think it read it was settled quickly in regards to them determining liability)


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notmeatloaf
post Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 22:13
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Luckily the solicitor recommended an independent CCTV expert who did site surveys so there is no wriggle room.

The whole thing was slightly surreal.

They blamed the inaccuracies in the initial report on the fact they "couldn't obtain statements". I said to them I knew they didn't ask me or the first witness on the scene for any information, and asked if they had contacted the driver. They said they couldn't say.

I then asked to speak to the police officer responsible and was told he "didn't understand" what I was asking for, they only had a manager. After a bit of pushing I got put in touch with an assistant to a police officer, who forwarded it to another admin person who was apparently working with a police officer, although I never heard from her. My guess is that was all lies, working in healthcare every non-clinical person knows what sister, matron or doctor they are accountable to, without exception.

For the review I forwarded them the CCTV report and also traced everything in bright colours and copy and pasted it into the email. They told me it wasn't "proportionate" to look at it. I mean, it's a bloody image that takes ten seconds to look at, supported by an independent report.



I have GDPRed the file to see what they have but I'm sure if god himself had descended from a cloud and demanded them to issue a ticket for careless driving they would have said it was not proportionate to listen to the voice booming across the earth and that they weren't really sure bicycles existed anyway
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