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4 different PCN from UK car park management., Urgent help needed.
London121
post Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 17:39
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Hello everyone,

I have today received 4 letters from CPM all PCN relates to the same location.

Background information.

The location is a car park at the back of residential flats and each flat has its own parking space however, their is about 20 or 25 more spaces that does not belongs to the flats.

The driver of the vehicle has been parking their for sometime now along with few other people who regularly park there and to this date their was no signs indicating that it is a private car park.

I have been to the car park and now their is some tiny signs only one at the entrance (attached below) and about 2-3 exact same signs placed at different location within the car park.

Please see attached all four PCN.

https://imgur.com/a/qb59AEt

https://imgur.com/a/lDwIXn4

https://imgur.com/a/XW1IO5L

https://imgur.com/a/urmfrEw

https://imgur.com/a/wHjO6ES

https://imgur.com/a/s9duWmY

Apologies for the inconvenience the images could not be embedded.

The driver did not received a ticket to the vehicle and this can be seen from the evidence submitted by the CPM. Their is no signs that indicate that ANPR is being used at this location and the images does not look like it has been taken from an ANPR camera.

The vehicle is a leased vehicle and I am the keeper of the vehicle.

Please advice how to respond to this I have done a little research and found out that CPM is not a member of BPA. However, I am still unsure how to respond to this 4 different notices arrived at the same day.

Many thanks

This post has been edited by London121: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 17:42
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post Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 17:39
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Jlc
post Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 17:47
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They are IPC members and extremely litigious. So no tickets are all were found on the car? All 4 of them?

Just because parking hasn't previously been enforced doesn't help much.

But signage needs to be clear.

If those letters are first contact you've had then they do not comply with the Protection of Freedoms Act to pursue the hirer - there's very specific things that need to be included for that.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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London121
post Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 17:51
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 18:47) *
They are IPC members and extremely litigious. So no tickets are all were found on the car? All 4 of them?

Just because parking hasn't previously been enforced doesn't help much.

But signage needs to be clear.

If those letters are first contact you've had then they do not comply with the Protection of Freedoms Act to pursue the hirer - there's very specific things that need to be included for that.


Hi thanks for the quick response. I did received 2 letters about a month ago however not 4 and I have misplaced them somewhere. Their was no ticket on the vehicle for those 4 letters however, their was a ticket recently given to the vehicle at the same location but that ticket does not belongs to these letters.

This post has been edited by London121: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 17:53
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Jlc
post Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 18:13
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As a matter of course submit a Subject Access Request immediately for the personal information they hold including pictures.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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London121
post Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 18:20
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 19:13) *
As a matter of course submit a Subject Access Request immediately for the personal information they hold including pictures.



I will submit SAR request over email today.

Would you recommend responding to those 4 letters at the moment?

Thanks for your time.
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Jlc
post Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 18:20
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I suspect this might be a 'self ticketing' operation. Where a resident is taking the snaps (badly) and then uploading them to CPM to process.

They openly admit only the driver is liable - they are not relying on PoFA. But have written to the hirer.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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London121
post Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 18:25
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 19:20) *
I suspect this might be a 'self ticketing' operation. Where a resident is taking the snaps (badly) and then uploading them to CPM to process.

They openly admit only the driver is liable - they are not relying on PoFA. But have written to the hirer.



Hi the vehicle is a leased vehicle so they must have written to the leasing company first as they are the registered keeper.

If I name the driver will that waive the liability from myself as the keeper of the vehicle. (not registered) or they will start sending letters to the leasing company as they are registered with DVLA.

The driver lives in another European country and they are not a resident of UK.

Thanks
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ostell
post Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 19:57
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Two points here. With the notice to hirer did you get a copy of the hire agreement and the original NTK? If not then they have failed to comply with POFA, 14(2) (a), and cannot hold the hirer liable.

You could identify the driver at the time giving full details and then POFA 5 (1) (b) no longer applies and they cannot hold the keeper liable.

This post has been edited by ostell: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 20:00
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Jlc
post Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 20:03
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QUOTE (London121 @ Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 19:25) *
If I name the driver will that waive the liability from myself as the keeper of the vehicle. (not registered) or they will start sending letters to the leasing company as they are registered with DVLA.

The driver lives in another European country and they are not a resident of UK.

They have failed on keeper liability - they can only pursue the driver.

But they are likely to sue whatever details they have - but would have to show on the balance of probabilities they were driving. You can honestly state you weren't driving - it would be even better if you had something to 'prove' that.

Alternatively, you could supply the name and address of the driver - but they won't be happy with that being abroad... (but that's their problem)

QUOTE (ostell @ Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 20:57) *
If not then they have failed to comply with POFA

Their paperwork explicitly says, "we have the right to recover from the driver..."

My guess is the self ticketer didn't take pictures of the PCN on the car but they still sent out non-PoFA paperwork. (Or they didn't ticket but didn't process quickly enough)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 20:11


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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London121
post Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 20:12
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 21:03) *
QUOTE (London121 @ Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 19:25) *
If I name the driver will that waive the liability from myself as the keeper of the vehicle. (not registered) or they will start sending letters to the leasing company as they are registered with DVLA.

The driver lives in another European country and they are not a resident of UK.

They have failed on keeper liability - they can only pursue the driver.

But they are likely to sue whatever details they have - but would have to show on the balance of probabilities they were driving. You can honestly state you weren't driving - it would be even better if you had something to 'prove' that.

Alternatively, you could supply the name and address of the driver - but they won't be happy with that being abroad... (but that's their problem)

QUOTE (ostell @ Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 20:57) *
If not then they have failed to comply with POFA

Their paperwork explicitly says, "we have the right to recover from the driver..."

My guess is the self ticketer didn't take pictures of the PCN on the car but they still sent out non-PoFA paperwork.



JLC and Ostel thanks for your responses.

Ostel - I only had these letter today in 4 different envelopes and none of the envelope had anything else apart from this formal demand.

now guys I am stuck what should be my next course of action.

Option 1 :- name the driver online even though if they are abroad and can they pursue the driver in another European country if the PCN is bound by UK laws.

Option 2 :- Send them the response that no debt is due and any further correspondence will be ignored.

Option 3 :- Appeal on signage.

Or any other option that you experts recommend.

thanks
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ostell
post Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 20:30
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Sirs

Ref PCN xxxxx VRM yyyyyy

I am the hirer/keeper of the above vehicle and am in receipt of the PCN you issued. I have no liability on this matter as you have failed to meet the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to supply the additional documents mandated by section 14 (2) (a) of the Act. You cannot therefore transfer liability from the driver at the time to me, the hirer keeper..

I was not the driver at the time and as there is no legal requirement to identify the driver I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc.



Send first class post with free certificate of posting from any post office so that it arrives on day 19 after the date of the letter so that they can't correct and resend within the relevant period of 21 days.


If they continue then identify the driver before it gets to court

They are not likely to take action outside the jurisdiction of the UK courts as it would cost them too much. They are likely to object to a non UK address but POFA doesn't specify it must be UK

This post has been edited by ostell: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 20:34
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London121
post Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 20:34
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QUOTE (ostell @ Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 21:30) *
Sirs

Ref PCN xxxxx VRM yyyyyy

I am the hirer/keeper of the above vehicle and am in receipt of the PCN you issued. I have no liability on this matter as you have failed to meet the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to supply the additional documents mandated by section 14 (2) (a) of the Act. You cannot therefore transfer liability from the driver at the time to me, the hirer keeper..

I was not the driver at the time and as there is no legal requirement to identify the driver I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc.


Send first class post with free certificate of posting from any post office so that it arrives on day 19 after the date of the letter so that they can't correct and resend within the relevant period of 21 days.


If they continue then identify the driver before it gets to court



Hi thanks for the response shall I just send the appeal online? as they have a online portal and I can do this right now or postal is recommended for proof of postage.
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ostell
post Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 20:39
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It's the proof of posting. If you do send online take screen prints of every page involved

This post has been edited by ostell: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 20:39
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Jlc
post Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 20:41
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Remember to appeal each one separately.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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London121
post Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 21:26
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 21:41) *
Remember to appeal each one separately.


Thanks for your assistance I have appealed online each one separately and recorded the evidence as screenshot. I will update the thread once their is a response from them.
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London121
post Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 13:55
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 15 Apr 2020 - 21:41) *
Remember to appeal each one separately.



Hi they have responded with this

Thank you for your correspondence. I am writing to inform you that UK CPM received a statement of liability from the Registered Keeper on the 14/02/2020. As the transfer of liability was processed on the 03/03/2020 and a Formal Demand was sent to yourself on this date, it was issued within the required timeframes stated within POFA 2012 and we are therefore, able to hold you liable as the Vehicle Hirer.


We can confirm that at this stage UK Car Park Management are the creditors and are making the claim as the issuer of the charge. We reserve the right to continue to cover the unpaid parking charge, the subject of the above PCN.


Due to GDPR, we are not at liberty to disclose any information in relation to our client. UK CPM does not own the land the vehicle was parked upon; however we do hold a legal contract that authorises our enforcement officers to monitor and maintain the parking areas on behalf of the landowner. This therefore entitles UK CPM to issue and uphold all parking charge notices given to those who have breached the parking restrictions.


Your parking charge notice was issued as a breach of contract occurred so VAT is not applicable.


The charge sought is industry standard and is set at a rate so as to suitably satisfy the Company's legitimate interest. In the case of Parking Eye -v-s Beavis [2015] it was held that a £85.00 charge was neither extravagant nor unconscionable. The Accredited Trade Associations of which parking operators must be a member in order to apply for DVLA data prescribe a maximum charge of £100. UK Car Park Managements charges are within this level, the charge is therefore not excessive.


The decision of the Supreme Court made it clear that the charges are not penal, nor do they have to be reflective of the parking operator's loss. Further, the charges can be set at a level that provides a deterrent effect.


Please note. All photographic evidence that was taken at the time of the contravention can be viewed in full on www.paymyticket.co.uk.


If you wish you transfer liability to the driver at the time of the contravention, you must write to our Transfer of Liability department at PO Box 3114, Lancing, BN15 8UW or submit this online via www.cpmappeals.co.uk/tol.



they have not paid attention to my reps that I was not mentioning the time frame but the required documents such as the hire agreement that had to be attached to the formal demand.

What should be my next course of action guys please advice.

New development no sign at the entry please see attached.

https://imgur.com/a/P1ZhpLW

This post has been edited by London121: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 14:04
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Jlc
post Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 14:31
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QUOTE (London121 @ Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 14:55) *
...it was issued within the required timeframes stated within POFA 2012 and we are therefore, able to hold you liable as the Vehicle Hirer.

But ignoring the fact that it is conditional on more than just the timeframe. And the rather important fact their own paperwork says only the driver is liable? Which is it guys?

QUOTE (London121 @ Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 14:55) *
Due to GDPR, we are not at liberty to disclose any information in relation to our client.

So it's a living person then? (For which only GDPR applies to)

QUOTE (London121 @ Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 14:55) *
The charge sought is industry standard and is set at a rate so as to suitably satisfy the Company's legitimate interest. In the case of Parking Eye -v-s Beavis [2015] it was held that a £85.00 charge was neither extravagant nor unconscionable. The Accredited Trade Associations of which parking operators must be a member in order to apply for DVLA data prescribe a maximum charge of £100. UK Car Park Managements charges are within this level, the charge is therefore not excessive.
The decision of the Supreme Court made it clear that the charges are not penal, nor do they have to be reflective of the parking operator's loss. Further, the charges can be set at a level that provides a deterrent effect.

Great, then you won't be escalating so it's potentially an abuse of process not supported by Beavis then?

QUOTE (London121 @ Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 14:55) *
What should be my next course of action guys please advice.

Nothing you'll say will deter them. Just get ready to defend a claim.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 14:32


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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ostell
post Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 16:29
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I would write back to them forcefully pointing out the errors identified by JLC and then just file everything away till they send a letter before claim.

You could then name the driver resident overseas and your proof of not driving

This post has been edited by ostell: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 16:29
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Jlc
post Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 17:33
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Keep this guff, a Judge may be amused by it.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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London121
post Sat, 2 May 2020 - 20:49
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 18:33) *
Keep this guff, a Judge may be amused by it.



Hi guys I wrote to them again mentioning the points highlighted by JLC and they just copy pasted the exact response sent earlier however this time they also attached statement of liability issued by the leasing company.

My understanding is that in order for them to be compliant with POFA they had to send me those documents within 21 days and it had to be accompanied with the formal demand not with an appeal email. Correct me here if I am wrong.

Please advice what should be my next course of action. Ignore them and wait for a claim?

Many thanks for your time.

This post has been edited by London121: Sat, 2 May 2020 - 20:51
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