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PPN - Kirkstall Forge railway station car park (Leeds) - Northern Rail
Gavin Fernandes
post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 15:30
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Hi...

The driver lives in Leeds and catches the train from Kirkstall Forge to city centre everyday. The driver parks in the railway station car park that is designated for railway users.
On 12.02.2020, when the driver arrived in the car park all of the parking bays were full. In between some of the car parking bays there is a grass section (see pic showing car parked on grass section in between bays).

The driver has seen other cars parked on this grass section before. However, when the driver got back to their car they were greeted with a PCN.

The driver has also taken a pic of the parking sign showing the regulations.










This post has been edited by Gavin Fernandes: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 15:55
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post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 15:30
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 15:44
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No pics show from me. Likely my work blocks it.

EDIT YOUR POST.
The drivers identity must NOT BE revealed
THE DRIVER parks. THE DRIVER commutes daily.... etc.

Then you go and read the dozen or so Railway byelaws threads.
Was this a PENALTY notice or a PARKING CHARGE notice?
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Gary Bloke
post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 15:48
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Edit your post to only refer to "the driver". No personal pronouns - delete them all. Change your user name to be something anonymous.
This is a Byelaws penalty notice not a parking charge notice.
There appears to be no signage saying that you cannot park on the grassy space. How can you be expected to know where you can and cannot park if there is no information provided on the signs about which spaces are allowed and which are not allowed?
You never identify the driver.
You appeal first as keeper using the instructions they provide. Then when they reject your appeal to appeal again to whoever they are using for second appeals (eg ITAL or POPLA) using the reference number they will give you.
Then when your second appeal is rejected you ignore all the threatening letters until the prosecution window closes after six months.
Other grounds for appeal:
1. Parking was paid for
2. No-one has any legal obligation to pay their penalty, which is merely an offer to avoid prosecution
3. Only the driver could ever be liable for a breach of Byelaws and you have no obligation to name the driver + you will not be doing so.
4. POFA Schedule 4 does not apply so there is no keeper liability
5. Only a Magistrate can decide whether or not a Byelaw was breached, not the parking operator or the TOC
6. Byelaws say the owner may be liable but do not specify when the owner would actually be liable.
7. Byelaws only apply to persons while they are on railway assets.
8. Being the keeper does not prove you were the owner.
9. There is no law making it a crime to be the owner of a vehicle parked in proven breach of Byelaws by someone else.
10. Since the penalty is actually an offer to avoid prosecution, declining this offer does not incur any debt. All references to debts in their letters are wholly unwarranted.

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Gavin Fernandes
post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 16:05
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Thank you.

But the sign does state that you have to park in marked bays?

The appeal also asks for the drivers name.



This post has been edited by Gavin Fernandes: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 22:12
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axeman
post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 17:08
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QUOTE (Gavin Fernandes @ Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 16:05) *
Thank you.

But the sign does state that you have to park in marked bays?

The appeal also asks for the drivers name.

How this is for a draft anyway?

Registered keeper's name: xxxx
Address: xxxxx
Reference: xxxxx
Vehicle registration: xxxx

Dear Sir/Madam,

As the registered keeper for the aforementioned vehicle registration I am writing to appeal the penalty parking notice. I am appealing on the following grounds:
There appears to be no signage saying that I cannot park where I had parked.

I am sure that you will accept this my grounds for appeal and I look forward for the penalty being cancelled.


The sign clearly states "only park between marked bay" the appeal will fail.


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Gavin Fernandes
post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 17:41
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ok - so what should i do then?
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Gavin Fernandes
post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 18:03
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I should also point out that I am leaving the country indefinitely at the start of April.
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ostell
post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 20:34
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Despite being requested not to hint at the driver your post #4 completely ignored this. Get editing.

Send your appeal so that it arrives on day 26, before they are allowed to contact the DVLA then slowly respond so that you can get to 6 months and they fail to issue a notice to keeper or contact the DVLA.

When you get to that far off place write to them again and tell them that this is your new address for service and delete your previous address from there records.
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Gavin Fernandes
post Thu, 13 Feb 2020 - 22:14
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Thank you.

Can you advise what my appeal should say please? And I presume I just submit this through the normal channels (e-mail or post) as indicated on the ticket.
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 14 Feb 2020 - 09:51
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Yes, of course you just submit through normal channels. But, and this is REALLY important, NEVER TELL THEM THE DRIVERS IDENTITY.

This is key. No ifs or buts on this

Post 3 gave you about 10 items, how about you write an appeal based on that?
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Gavin Fernandes
post Sun, 16 Feb 2020 - 21:09
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OK - the draft appeal is:

This is an appeal against the following reference number xxxxxxx based on the following grounds:
- Byelaws say the owner may be liable but do not specify when the owner would actually be liable.

------------------------------------------------


To confirm, the following steps should be taken:
1. On Day 26 send the appeal
2. Wait for rejection and post rejection on here
3. April 1 - inform DVLA change of address due to leaving country

Can someone please confirm?

This post has been edited by Gavin Fernandes: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 - 21:09
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ostell
post Sun, 16 Feb 2020 - 22:25
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The owner does not come into this. You appeal AS THE KEEPER so that it arrives on day 26 saying that as the keeper you cannot be held liable for the actions of the driver. As this is not relevant land then the Protection of Freedoms Act does not help them. There is no legal requirement to identify the driver and you will not be doing so.

Keep up the letter ping pong as long as possible. A later letter, in response to their rejection, will be to query which portion of Byelaw 14 has been breached. Then when you have left the country then write to them and tell them your new address for service and delete the old address from their records.

Informing the DVLA of the change of address is a different issue.
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 17 Feb 2020 - 11:25
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You need to inform the OPERATOR of your change of ADDRESS FOR SERVICE when you leave the country. They CANNOT go back to the DVLA to request your address a second time, for example.
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Gavin Fernandes
post Mon, 17 Feb 2020 - 15:55
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Ok here is the revised appeal:

As the registered keeper for the vehicle this is an appeal on the grounds that the keeper cannot be held liable for the actions of the driver. There is no legal requirement to identify the driver and you will not be doing so.

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ostell
post Mon, 17 Feb 2020 - 18:04
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You have to tell them why you are not liable
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Gavin Fernandes
post Mon, 17 Feb 2020 - 20:38
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How about:

I am not liable for the offence and I wish to appeal based on the following grounds:
As the registered keeper for the vehicle The keeper cannot be held liable for the actions of the driver. There is no legal requirement to identify the driver and you will not be doing so
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Gary Bloke
post Mon, 17 Feb 2020 - 23:03
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You need to say that this is railway land where Byelaws apply. Therefore Schedule 4 of POFA does not apply, so there is no possibility of transferring liability from the driver to the keeper. You are appealing as keeper and you have no legal obligation to say anything about the driver.
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Gavin Fernandes
post Tue, 18 Feb 2020 - 22:18
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I am not liable for the offence and I wish to appeal based on the following grounds:
As the registered keeper for the vehicle The keeper cannot be held liable for the actions of the driver. There is no legal requirement to identify the driver and you will not be doing so. This is railway land where Byelaws apply. Therefore Schedule 4 of POFA does not apply, so there is no possibility of transferring liability from the driver to the keeper. I amappealing as keeper and there is no legal obligation to say anything about the driver.

Is this better
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Gary Bloke
post Wed, 19 Feb 2020 - 08:44
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Yes. You don't need the second and third sentences.
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Gavin Fernandes
post Mon, 2 Mar 2020 - 09:20
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Hi Just a couple of questions before the letter is sent:

1) Does the sender's postal address on the letter? Or should this be left off so they have to go to the DVLA

2) Should the letter by signed by a named individual? Or should it just be signed by the registered keeper?

This post has been edited by Gavin Fernandes: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 - 09:20
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