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NCP ...Why so serious
cdv85
post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 10:12
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I've received a PCN from NPC

The date of incident is 6th July 2019 and the date of them sending me a NTK is October 7th.....

Always ignored anything in the past but I understand this is no longer an option, what's my best plan?

Any advice is much appreciated

This post has been edited by cdv85: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 23:13
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post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 10:12
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Sheffield Dave
post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 11:13
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Does the NtK say "penalty charge notice" or "parking charge notice"? And does it mention byelaws?
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ostell
post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 12:28
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Or post it up suitably redacted, leaving dates

Edit your post so that the identity of the driver cannot be inferred. Use "the driver......." etc
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cdv85
post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 19:02
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QUOTE (Sheffield Dave @ Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 12:13) *
Does the NtK say "penalty charge notice" or "parking charge notice"? And does it mention byelaws?



It says parking charge notice to keeper
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cdv85
post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 19:13
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QUOTE (ostell @ Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 13:28) *
Or post it up suitably redacted, leaving dates

Edit your post so that the identity of the driver cannot be inferred. Use "the driver......." etc


Is this ok?
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ostell
post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 19:22
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You must edit as requested. The identity of the driver must not be inferred.

Presumably there was no windscreen ticket so:

Dear Sirs,

I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within the relevant period of 14 days as prescribed by section 9 (4) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc

Send first class with free certificate of posting from a post office
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cdv85
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 11:17
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QUOTE (ostell @ Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 20:22) *
You must edit as requested. The identity of the driver must not be inferred.

Presumably there was no windscreen ticket so:

Dear Sirs,

I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within the relevant period of 14 days as prescribed by section 9 (4) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc

Send first class with free certificate of posting from a post office


They have an online appeals process would it make any difference to do it that way?
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Jlc
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 11:19
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QUOTE (cdv85 @ Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 12:17) *
They have an online appeals process would it make any difference to do it that way?

As long as it doesn't force you to answer on the driver.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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cabbyman
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 11:27
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If this is the correct car park, it looks like it could be subject to byelaws.

https://goo.gl/maps/NfWcu1gBjwy4f24y9


--------------------
Cabbyman 10 PPCs 0
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cdv85
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 13:42
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QUOTE (cabbyman @ Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 12:27) *
If this is the correct car park, it looks like it could be subject to byelaws.

https://goo.gl/maps/NfWcu1gBjwy4f24y9


That's the main entrance, I was the other side. I'm not very up on this what does it mean if its subject to byelaws?
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ostell
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 13:44
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They're treating it like a civil contract so the response fits in with that
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The Rookie
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 13:59
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QUOTE (cdv85 @ Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 14:42) *
I'm not very up on this what does it mean if its subject to byelaws?

There are a number of effects, big and small
1/ The Protection of Freedoms act 2012 Schedule 4 (the bit that allows them to sue a keeper for a drivers actions) doesn't apply where there are byelaws, so only the driver can be liable (they can issue a penalty notice to the owner but it has no legal basis behind it, noting that the keeper may not be the owner anyway!).
2/ The offer of a civil 'parking charge notice' in exchange for an offer to not prosecute looks suspiciously like blackmail or fraud


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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cdv85
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 14:05
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 14:59) *
QUOTE (cdv85 @ Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 14:42) *
I'm not very up on this what does it mean if its subject to byelaws?

There are a number of effects, big and small
1/ The Protection of Freedoms act 2012 Schedule 4 (the bit that allows them to sue a keeper for a drivers actions) doesn't apply where there are byelaws, so only the driver can be liable (they can issue a penalty notice to the owner but it has no legal basis behind it, noting that the keeper may not be the owner anyway!).
2/ The offer of a civil 'parking charge notice' in exchange for an offer to not prosecute looks suspiciously like blackmail or fraud


I'm thinking that as it's a railway station it definitely is subject to byelaws then. What's my best course of action here?
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The Rookie
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 14:09
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Find out!

But yes if it's railway land then railway byelaws apply.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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cdv85
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 14:57
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So does it work in my favour if byelaws apply?
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cdv85
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 16:41
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May as well just pay the ******* thing. Cant find any information. How the **** do people get fined for doing their job
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Jlc
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 17:06
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QUOTE (cdv85 @ Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 17:41) *
May as well just pay the ******* thing. Cant find any information. How the **** do people get fined for doing their job

You have a winning appeal in post #6.

If it's a parking charge notice (instead of penalty) then it's being pursued as a civil charge. The byelaws would exclude it from being 'Relevant land' so keeper liability cannot accrue.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 17:07


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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ostell
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 17:31
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They have sent a notice to keeper under civil law. Send that appeal on the basis that they appear to be using civil law. Don't let them know that you know they can't use POFA to claim against the keeper. Keep up the letter ping pong to get to 6 months then they can't use byelaws.
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Bigden136
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 17:35
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CDV,

If you search on this forum "Railway" you will get sufficient examples and information about this.

With Railway Byelaws if they do not have the identity of the driver then the Keeper liability is questionable - it is not clear form your NTK whether they are applying contractual law or criminal law... the sign at the station should be clear on this. If the NTK is an offer not to prosecute under criminal law then you are not obliged to accept the offer.

Looking at the dates - date of incident 6th July and date notice sent is as late as October so think this is subject to Railway Byelaws as otherwise they should have delivered the notice within 14 days under POFA - which only applies where Railway Byelaws do not.

You need to appeal the charge at the latest possible date - so on about day 25 then this will get rejected.

What you need to do is stretch the response timelines as far as you can until 6 months have passed after which a prosecution under Byelaws is no longer possible

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cdv85
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 19:09
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QUOTE (Bigden136 @ Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 18:35) *
CDV,

If you search on this forum "Railway" you will get sufficient examples and information about this.

With Railway Byelaws if they do not have the identity of the driver then the Keeper liability is questionable - it is not clear form your NTK whether they are applying contractual law or criminal law... the sign at the station should be clear on this. If the NTK is an offer not to prosecute under criminal law then you are not obliged to accept the offer.

Looking at the dates - date of incident 6th July and date notice sent is as late as October so think this is subject to Railway Byelaws as otherwise they should have delivered the notice within 14 days under POFA - which only applies where Railway Byelaws do not.

You need to appeal the charge at the latest possible date - so on about day 25 then this will get rejected.

What you need to do is stretch the response timelines as far as you can until 6 months have passed after which a prosecution under Byelaws is no longer possible


Sorry guys bad day. Frustrated. So does this mean I also cant appeal through popla once they reject?

This post has been edited by cdv85: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 19:10
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