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PCN - ULEZ - Incorrect Location
Angry Mob
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 12:13
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Hi,

We have a fleet pay option for the ULEZ, however we sent a different vehicle to London that doesn't typically go, it happened to be Euro 5 and we knew that we would have to pay the £100 surcharge as its a HGV. Problem was due to an oversight it wasn't added to our fleet autopay option.

So a lovely PCN arrived this morning asking for £1000 or £500 if we pay by 29th October as below.

[attachment=67344:PCN.jpg]


Looking at the PCN however it has the location down as Borough Road at 10:00. I checked our tracking system and the vehicle was on City Road A501 at this time, in fact it was never south of the Thames at all.


[attachment=67351:map.jpg]


I accept that we were in the wrong due to our admin error but if they have they made an admin error that that cancels this extortionate tax out I think it would be fair dos, any thoughts?
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post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 12:13
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 12:23
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They will have photos and CCTV. Is it your vehicle on them? can the location be discerned from them?


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Angry Mob
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 13:31
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They have pictures online, all from one camera T793 but doesn't give a location or time stamp on the images.

The vehicle in the picture online and in the PCN is ours.

This post has been edited by Angry Mob: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 14:30
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 16:02
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post the picture then lets see if we can ascertain the location from them


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Angry Mob
post Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 07:40
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[attachment=67385:LOCATION.jpg]
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cp8759
post Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 10:03
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No idea where this is but the words "Transportable cam" make me very suspicious.

However the contravention isn't being on a particular road, so this is not necessarily a silver bullet.


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baroudeur
post Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 11:59
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 11:03) *
No idea where this is but the words "Transportable cam" make me very suspicious.

However the contravention isn't being on a particular road, so this is not necessarily a silver bullet.


A 'transportable' camera would need its location identified for the PCN so perhaps it wasn't changed from the previous location at Borough Road?
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 13:00
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What is clear from the photo is the zig zags at the end of which is a DYL. There is only one crossing on borough road. And it is not the same as in the photo where along side the café, are parking bays.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4989399,-...6384!8i8192

Can't say where you were from the photo, but I think there is good evidence of where you were not

So an argument that the location cited is incorrect can be made




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cp8759
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 10:36
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 14:00) *
So an argument that the location cited is incorrect can be made

Yes but my concern is, would an adjudicator say "well you were in the zone" and uphold the PCN.


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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 12:54
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 11:36) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 14:00) *
So an argument that the location cited is incorrect can be made

Yes but my concern is, would an adjudicator say "well you were in the zone" and uphold the PCN.



They might well but does the PCN giving the wrong location invalidate it , it would for MTC


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Neil B
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 04:37
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 13:54) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 11:36) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 14:00) *
So an argument that the location cited is incorrect can be made

Yes but my concern is, would an adjudicator say "well you were in the zone" and uphold the PCN.



They might well but does the PCN giving the wrong location invalidate it , it would for MTC

If we were to ignore this for the mo>
QUOTE (Angry Mob @ Tue, 15 Oct 2019 - 13:13) *
I checked our tracking system and the vehicle was on City Road A501 at this time,

How would an adjudicator be able to conclude the vehicle was in the zone if TfL themselves don't know where it was?

This post has been edited by Neil B: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 04:38


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Longtime Lurker
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 09:41
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 13:54) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 11:36) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 14:00) *
So an argument that the location cited is incorrect can be made

Yes but my concern is, would an adjudicator say "well you were in the zone" and uphold the PCN.



They might well but does the PCN giving the wrong location invalidate it , it would for MTC


To which you reply that you haven't come prepared to defend yourself against an accusation of being at an unknown location, because this is the first you've heard of that accusation.

Surely neither TfL or the adjudicator can ambush you with a new accusation at adjudication and give you no time to prepare a defence?
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stamfordman
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 09:44
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It's a high stakes game going to adjudication here - £500 at stake. The reps to TFL need to be really strong.
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cp8759
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 18:54
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 13:54) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 11:36) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 14:00) *
So an argument that the location cited is incorrect can be made

Yes but my concern is, would an adjudicator say "well you were in the zone" and uphold the PCN.



They might well but does the PCN giving the wrong location invalidate it , it would for MTC

The more pertinent question might be, would it invalidate a Congestion Charge PCN?

The best approach here seems to be to simply deny that the vehicle was at the location alleged (which is easily proven) and leave it at that. There is no need to introduce evidence about where the vehicle actually was.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 18:54


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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 18:59
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 19:54) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 13:54) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 11:36) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 16 Oct 2019 - 14:00) *
So an argument that the location cited is incorrect can be made

Yes but my concern is, would an adjudicator say "well you were in the zone" and uphold the PCN.



They might well but does the PCN giving the wrong location invalidate it , it would for MTC

The more pertinent question might be, would it invalidate a Congestion Charge PCN?

The best approach here seems to be to simply deny that the vehicle was at the location alleged (which is easily proven) and leave it at that. There is no need to introduce evidence about where the vehicle actually was.


Absolutly. TFL say you were on borough road the photo you have posted appears to refute that but get the video lets try to do a more thorough check


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Angry Mob
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 11:24
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So, contact them requesting the video evidence before I appeal?
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cp8759
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 17:39
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QUOTE (Angry Mob @ Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 12:24) *
So, contact them requesting the video evidence before I appeal?

You can if you want but to be honest the photos is enough to draft a challenge.


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Angry Mob
post Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 13:42
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I sent the appeal, kept it simple and simply stated that the vehicle was not on Borough road on the date of the PCN.

They have replied with a template letter in order to process my representation can I provide them with as much evidence as possible to support it. It gives examples such as tracker reports, statements, photographs demonstrating difference between the vehicles, proof in involvement from police that the vehicle is a ringer/clone or an affidavit/witness statement that the vehicle was not within the ULEZ.

It states they must have evidence within 14 days from the date of the letter 8/11/19 by postal address.

Suggested action?

This post has been edited by Angry Mob: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 13:53
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cp8759
post Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 13:54
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You cannot be required to incriminate yourself in this way. Send back a copy of their own photo:

---------

Dear Transport for London,

I cannot say with certainty where the vehicle was, but I can say where it was not. The image you have provided shows the vehicle on a pedestrian crossing. There is only one crossing on Borough Road and from a quick look on Google Street View it is clear that the crossing in Borough Road is not the crossing where the vehicle was photographed by your camera:

[insert unredacted image from PCN]

[insert screenshot from google street view]

As the alleged contravention did not occur, I trust the PCN will now be cancelled.


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DancingDad
post Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 15:09
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The PCN is clear.
It alleges that you were on a road in a chargeable zone.
And tells you the road.
If the evidence they have does not support that, the PCN cannot stand.

I would not make any statement regarding not knowing or being uncertain, that is a lie.
But would follow CP's I know where the vehicle was not, that is that it wasn't on Borough Road plus the photo evidence and screenshot.

Should it get to adjudication, I would not go for a personal hearing where awkward questions may be asked either.
On papers is all that is needed IMO.
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