Council litter FPN's - Incentivised Options

[The Rookie]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39882434

Operators working for Kingdom who supply litter patrols to councils getting up to £987 a month as a 'competency allowance', the more tickets they issue the more 'competent' they are apparently.

Taught to threaten to call the Police if not given a name and address,

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[The Rookie]

Per offence, but I'm sure that kingdom will train them as per item to get a bigger cut......

[notmeatloaf]

Sounds just like PPC world really!

There have been plenty of reports of people only dropping a fag end/orange peel/coffee dregs but AFAIK there have been no reports of people being fined even when they didn't commit the contravention, which is de rigeur in PPC world.

As is often said here about speeding, when there are so many who are dropping litter, why would you make up reports?

[southpaw82]

Sounds just like PPC world really!

There have been plenty of reports of people only dropping a fag end/orange peel/coffee dregs but AFAIK there have been no reports of people being fined even when they didn't commit the contravention, which is de rigeur in PPC world.

As is often said here about speeding, when there are so many who are dropping litter, why would you make up reports?

The ones that make the news tend to suggest a misunderstanding of the law though. Accidentally dropping an object or placing it down temporarily doesn't mean an offence of littering has taken place.

[Gan]

As in this example

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-40062430

[ManxRed]

As in this example

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-40062430

I read about this in a newspaper and in that article they added that the shopowner (who was at a hospital appointment) later highlighted the fact that she had a licence anyway, so Lord knows what the two Hot Fuzz enforcement officers were trying to achieve.

[soggi]

Could the kingdom officer detain you for long enough for the police to arrive?

No, which is why they use half truths and deceit to get your details.

[soggi]

would likely attach less weight to the evidence of a poorly trained, commission-hungry private employee than would be attached to the evidence of a typical police officer.

They almost certainly have body cams, the video can't lie.

If we can't have private companies being quasi-police can we disband TV Licensing please?

The video only films the conversation about the offence, its almost impossible to film an offence using a body cam as its fixed to the chest (try holding your phone on your chest and video an event 30 metres away without looking at the screen). Most of the evidence would not hold up in court, which is why the 'officers' will bend over backwards to get you to accept the FPN. The majority of those ticketed are the type of person not likely to be that savvy with ltheir legal rights and just get bullied into paying. The kingdom staff dress like the police including stab vests and radios. If you get stopped by some herbert that looks like he is about to go on a SWAT raid and get quoted a load of legal jargon with threats of thousand pound fines, jail and criminal records most just give up their details and pay.
Whilst most people might not see an issue with companies getting 80% of all tickets issued, who likes litter after all its a complete disgrace. As mentioned in the programme its got nothing to do with solving the litter problem its about raising revenue with officers targetting smokers at bus stops they know there are no bins at for example.
Making the public pay a fine based entirely on the evidence of a person who is getting a cut of the fine is fatally flawed and should never be allowed.

[Monster 900]

Just another news article from the Daily Post about Kingdom.

A Kingdom warden has been pictured leaning on his illegally parked car to issue a £100 fine to a pensioner whose dog was off its lead.

The image was taken by Ann France who successfully overturned a previous penalty by Kingdom Security.

The 72-year-old now claims officers from the private firm are “harassing” her after being hit with two more fines.

[oldstoat]

one rather simple question. Are the people being handed these fines commiting offfences under by laws? Or other legislation? Are the by laws being enforced.? If yes to both then suggest people shut up and stop breaking the rules Simples. the same argument about private firms incentived to make speed cameras illegal is trotted out by those who speed. Its wrong its immoral blah blah blah

[southpaw82]

Who knows if they're guilty or not? What we do know is that the people handing out the tickets have a financial incentive to do so and so are motivated to hand them out regardless of guilt.

[soggi]

one rather simple question. Are the people being handed these fines commiting offfences under by laws? Or other legislation? Are the by laws being enforced.? If yes to both then suggest people shut up and stop breaking the rules Simples. the same argument about private firms incentived to make speed cameras illegal is trotted out by those who speed. Its wrong its immoral blah blah blah

If you use your comparison of speeding what is happening is like you being stopped by an employee of a company sub contracted to enforce speeding and being told you have just been seen speeding by the employee and need to pay a fine of which his employer is going to get 80%. You claim you didn't speed and want to see the evidence of which there is none other than the fact the employee saw you. The only option you have is to pay or take a day off work and attend court and risk a higher fine, how many people will have the confidence or bother to contest? If you look at the number of people who are innocent of parking contraventions and do not bother contesting even though its a simple process how many 'litterers' do you think will go to Court? This is a licence to print money for Kingdom and 3GS they have nothing to lose they can just hand out fines to anyone most people don't understand the law and just pay even if they have not broken the law. The law is so vague and doesn't even define litter, its just being interpreted by the 'wardens' to suit their own means and financial benefit.

[Monster 900]

More on this from the Daily Post.

Looks like some Conwy residents aren't too happy with the service provided.

Residents vow to 'take back control of West Shore' in protest over private warden firm.

And, as soggi intimated, there is the potential conflict of interest:

Agreements in place with North Wales authorities, who take a cut, mean Kingdom retains most of the revenue from each ticket, leading to arguments it encourages them to issue as many fines as possible.

I wonder what the lawyers will say?

She has now enlisted the help of Aberconwy AM Janet Finch Saunders who has requested legal advice from solicitors at the National Assembly on the matter.

This post has been edited by Monster 900: Sat, 1 Jul 2017 - 09:44

[soggi]

would likely attach less weight to the evidence of a poorly trained, commission-hungry private employee than would be attached to the evidence of a typical police officer.

They almost certainly have body cams, the video can't lie.

If we can't have private companies being quasi-police can we disband TV Licensing please?

Body cams do not record the offence is almost impossible to get a chest mounted camera to pick up an offence when the 'officer' cannot even see what is being filmed until the film is played back, the cameras are used to record the interview where the 'offender' is encouraged to admit the offence.