Bus Lane PCN Shepherd's Bush Rd, Southbund Offside on motorbike (LBHF), Help appreciated! - FIRST DRAFT LETTER NOW ADDED - with photos etc |
Bus Lane PCN Shepherd's Bush Rd, Southbund Offside on motorbike (LBHF), Help appreciated! - FIRST DRAFT LETTER NOW ADDED - with photos etc |
Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 17:47
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 21 Aug 2010 Member No.: 39,947 |
Hi
Could really do with your help. Received a PCN for being in a bus lane on my motorbike on Shepherd Bush rd / Southbound. I have access to the video but have included the key frames here in a photo. It shows me overtaking a stationary vehicle (looks like a coach) this vehicle is blocking the view of the sign indicating the confusing bus lane layout. After the couch I am on the outside of the cars where a motorbike would normally be, but then am on a bus lane on the right hand side which is about 15 meters long or so. I can't imagine how I'd not be 'caught' in this bus lane or how I could've known to take any other route. And once in the bus lane the logical, safest and quickest way to get off it was the route i took. Images from video: View on google maps: https://goo.gl/maps/KH3tH5AeDGF2 Similar case that was 'won' but Im concerned as it says they appeared in person, so sounds like they might have had their initial appeal turned down until they took it to court?: http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t97706.html Reason for allowing was; "the bus lane sign was obscured by a vehicle to the left of the appellant's vehicle. The CCTV footage shows a coach parked on the left, it seems the coach was parked in a position so as to obscure from view the bus lane sign." My pcn: Image from google: shows bus lane sign placed after the start of the bus lane taper. ALso shows how it would be hidden if a higher sided vehicle were in that lane (as is shown in my video footage and screenshots.) Should i literally copy the key phrases from the winning court case namely the obscured signage. I would like to get this quashed as soon and as simply as I can. I dont want to waste time explaining any logical reasons why this layout is ridiculous, just whatever I need to put that will most likely get the ticket cancelled. Your time appreciated. ps - should i include printouts of these images and diagrams along with my challenge. This post has been edited by luke haig: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 - 16:57 |
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Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 17:47
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Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 18:24
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,308 Joined: 9 May 2014 Member No.: 70,515 |
Obscured signage will be your major point.
However, the Council will probably counter with the change in colour of the tarmac and road markings.. At 18:15 (=18:15:00) the time alleged on the PCN, you were presumably not in the 'bus lane? Some adjudicators have allowed this point, others have not, but another point you can include in your reps. There may be errors in the PCN itself, others here will point this out if so. H&F unlikely to give way, which would mean risking the full amount if you were to take it to the Adjudicator at the Tribunal (not court) QUOTE I dont want to waste time explaining any logical reasons why this layout is ridiculous Very sensible not to attempt an explanation: whatever you or I may think, its layout is approved (designed to enable 'buses to be rightly positioned to enter the 'bus station across the road). |
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Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 19:56
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Hi Could really do with your help. Received a PCN for being in a bus lane on my motorbike on Shepherd Bush rd / Southbound. I have access to the video but have included the key frames here in a photo. It shows me overtaking a stationary vehicle (looks like a coach) this vehicle is blocking the view of the sign indicating the confusing bus lane layout. After the couch I am on the outside of the cars where a motorbike would normally be, but then am on a bus lane on the right hand side which is about 15 meters long or so. I can't imagine how I'd not be 'caught' in this bus lane or how I could've known to take any other route. And once in the bus lane the logical, safest and quickest way to get off it was the route i took. Images from video: View on google maps: https://goo.gl/maps/KH3tH5AeDGF2 Similar case that was 'won' but Im concerned as it says they appeared in person, so sounds like they might have had their initial appeal turned down until they took it to court?: http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t97706.html Reason for allowing was; "the bus lane sign was obscured by a vehicle to the left of the appellant's vehicle. The CCTV footage shows a coach parked on the left, it seems the coach was parked in a position so as to obscure from view the bus lane sign." My pcn: Should i literally copy the key phrases from the winning court case namely the obscured signage. I would like to get this quashed as soon and as simply as I can. I dont want to waste time explaining any logical reasons why this layout is ridiculous, just whatever I need to put that will most likely get the ticket cancelled. Your time appreciated. To get this cancelled it's 99.9% certain you will need to take it to adjudication, this will involve a bit of work you decide if it's worth it -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Tue, 25 Apr 2017 - 20:12
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 21 Aug 2010 Member No.: 39,947 |
Why would it be so certain to go to adjudication.
Looks to me totally obvious by the photos and video that It should be cancelled. Based on the placement of signage & position of coach combined with the layout of the 10meters of bus lane. Also as someone elses has already been cancelled due to this exact same reason. Is there a chance they could dispute the case in an adjudication and charge me court fees even though all logic and reason based on the photos and video support my 'argument' To get this cancelled it's 99.9% certain you will need to take it to adjudication, this will involve a bit of work you decide if it's worth it
This post has been edited by luke haig: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 - 00:16 |
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Wed, 26 Apr 2017 - 13:02
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 21 Aug 2010 Member No.: 39,947 |
First draft of my 'challenge' letter, I'd like to add my personal feelings to it but have tried to keep it as legal as possible to maximise my chance of having the charge dropped.
Your feedback on how to improve this outcome much appreciated! ----- To whom it may concern: I was riding my motorbike down Shepherd Bush rd / Southbound in the outside lane. Coming up to the Hammersmith roundabout there was a high sided vehicle stationary in the bus lane, I followed the traffic around the stationary vehicle and continued in the outside lane. Then I noticed the outside lane I was on had became a short stretch of red bus lane (which I had seen no warning or signage of) and as I'd never driven down this road before was unaware of the unusual road/bus lane layout. I could not avoid now being in this outside bus lane as the inside lane was now full of traffic so I took the shortest and safest route out of the bus lane which was only about 16 meters or so long. Looking at the photos, videos footage and viewing the layout on maps & in person the signage was obscured from my view behind the high-sided vehicle. Also it appears the signage is also placed after the start of the bus lane taper. My reason for challenging this PCN is first: I did not and could not have seen the sign due to being behind (and then beside) a large vehicle when I approached the 'outside' bus lane which obscured the view of the sign. And secondly it appears inadequate that the restriction warning appears after the restriction has started. I would appreciate if you could cancel this penalty charge without further issue & would also recommend better signage to warn the motorists of this easily hidden bus lane/road layout Thanks for your time. This post has been edited by luke haig: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 - 13:42 |
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Wed, 26 Apr 2017 - 15:28
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,308 Joined: 9 May 2014 Member No.: 70,515 |
I'd put in the point about timing on the PCN - that you were elsewhere at the time alleged.
They may make a mess in responding. |
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Wed, 26 Apr 2017 - 15:58
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 21 Aug 2010 Member No.: 39,947 |
Hi John.
On the video I enter the 'red bus lane' at 18:15:45 and am off it at 18:15: 52 The PCN states 18:15 (does not show seconds, but has the correct minute) I don't see how I can contest that Am I missing something? I'd put in the point about timing on the PCN - that you were elsewhere at the time alleged. They may make a mess in responding. |
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Wed, 26 Apr 2017 - 17:41
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,308 Joined: 9 May 2014 Member No.: 70,515 |
Hi John. On the video I enter the 'red bus lane' at 18:15:45 and am off it at 18:15: 52 The PCN states 18:15 (does not show seconds, but has the correct minute) I don't see how I can contest that Am I missing something? I'd put in the point about timing on the PCN - that you were elsewhere at the time alleged. They may make a mess in responding. 18:15 =18:15:00 If you arrived at 18:15:45 at a railway station to catch a train adverised to depart at a 18:15 and there was no train you would have no claim against the railway company. You were elsewhere at the time alleged on the PCN. From my earlier post - #2: QUOTE At 18:15 (=18:15:00) the time alleged on the PCN, you were presumably not in the 'bus lane? Some adjudicators have allowed this point, others have not, but another point you can include in your reps. This post has been edited by John U.K.: Wed, 26 Apr 2017 - 17:42 |
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Thu, 27 Apr 2017 - 14:01
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 21 Aug 2010 Member No.: 39,947 |
UPDATED LETTER Below (added time issue)
also added 'De minimis' - not sure how to phrase it or if I should include this? All feed back appreciated. PS: Should i include the google view & my diagrams when responding? ------------------ I was riding my motorbike down Shepherd Bush rd / Southbound in the outside lane. I'd never driven down this road before so was unaware of any unusual road/bus lane layout (but was observing & conforming to all viewable signage) Coming up to the Hammersmith roundabout there was a high sided vehicle stationary in the bus lane, I followed the traffic around the stationary vehicle and continued in the outside lane. I noticed the outside lane I was now on had became a very short stretch of red bus lane (I had seen no warning or signage of this). I could not avoid now being in this outside bus lane as the inside lane was now full of traffic so I took the shortest and safest route out of the buslane which was only about 16 meters or so long (de minimis). Looking at the photos, videos footage and viewing the layout on maps & in person the signage was obscured from my view behind/beside the high sided vehicle. Also it appears the signage is placed after the start of the bus lane taper. My reasons for challenging this PCN are: I did not and could not have seen the sign due to being behind (and then beside) a large vehicle when I approached the 'outside' bus lane which obscured the view of the sign. It appears inadequate that the restriction warning appears after the restriction has started. The PCN states I was in the bus lane at (time) 18:15 (=18:15:00), I was not in the bus lane at this time (as shown in the video footage & photos) De minimis I would appreciate if you could cancel this penalty charge without further issue & would also recommend better signage to warn the motorists of this easily hidden bus lane/road layout Thanks for your time. This post has been edited by luke haig: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 - 14:20 |
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Thu, 27 Apr 2017 - 14:54
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,308 Joined: 9 May 2014 Member No.: 70,515 |
Luke, I've added some alterations below but must stress I am no expert so do see what others say:
UPDATED LETTER Below (added time issue)
also added 'De minimis' - not sure how to phrase it or if I should include this? All feed back appreciated. PS: Should i include the google view & my diagrams when responding? ------------------ I was riding my motorbike down Shepherd Bush rd / Southbound in the outside lane. I'd never driven down this road before so was unaware of any unusual road/bus lane layout (but was observing & conforming to all viewable signage) Coming up to the Hammersmith roundabout there was a high sided stationary vehicle parked in the nearside bus lane, I followed the traffic I noticed the outside lane I was now on had became a very short stretch of red bus lane (I had seen no warning or signage of this). I could not avoid now being in this outside bus lane as the inside lane was now full of traffic so I took the shortest and safest route out of the buslane which was only about 16 meters or so long (de minimis). Looking at the photos, videos footage and viewing the layout on maps & in person the signage was obscured from my view behind/beside the high sided vehicle. Also it appears the signage is placed after the start of the bus lane taper. Thus my reasons for challenging this PCN are: 1) Inadequate Signage I did not and could not have seen the sign due to being behind (and then beside) a large vehicle when I approached the 'outside' bus lane which obscured the view of the sign. It appears inadequate that the restriction warning appears after the restriction has started. 2) De minimis Any incursion in the 'bus lane was de minimis as I left the 'bus lane as soon as it was safe and prudent to do so. 2) The Contravention did not occur at the time stated on the PCN. The PCN states I was in the bus lane at (time) 18:15 (=18:15:00), I was not in the bus lane at this time (as shown in the video footage & photos). I would appreciate if you could cancel this penalty charge without further issue & would also recommend better signage to warn the motorists of this easily hidden bus lane/road layout Thanks for your time. This post has been edited by John U.K.: Thu, 27 Apr 2017 - 14:54 |
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Thu, 8 Jun 2017 - 10:37
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 21 Aug 2010 Member No.: 39,947 |
Posted / Emailed my letter on the 1st May (Received email to confirm).
Still shows as 'Open' on their website, been 39 days now since receiving confirmation. Should I phone them to clarify whats going on or is it in my favour to let them sit on it. Annoys me having this hanging over me as every day I'm looking at the mail expecting a b******* letter requiring me to take it to the next stage etc. |
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Thu, 8 Jun 2017 - 12:20
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 21 Aug 2010 Member No.: 39,947 |
Ok so phoned them up, apparently there's a 3 month+ backlog of challenges!
So will be about another 2 months until mine gets looked at. Bunch of ***** Posted / Emailed my letter on the 1st May (Received email to confirm). Still shows as 'Open' on their website, been 39 days now since receiving confirmation. Should I phone them to clarify whats going on or is it in my favour to let them sit on it. Annoys me having this hanging over me as every day I'm looking at the mail expecting a b******* letter requiring me to take it to the next stage etc. |
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Sat, 10 Jun 2017 - 08:41
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 761 Joined: 16 Jun 2010 From: sw11 Member No.: 38,303 |
Another point, the 'money shot' with your number plate does not appear to prove any contravention (ie you were past the bus lane at that point)? You'd need to see the video to see if its a continuous pan or two separate cameras?
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Mon, 19 Jun 2017 - 10:59
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 21 Aug 2010 Member No.: 39,947 |
I've seen the video, continuous pan of bike then a zoom into the plate.
It's disgusting how I may need to wait 4 months until they even look at my challenge. Meanwhile if I was to miss their replay within 14 days etc then the debt could spiral out of control. Will update post as and when I hear back from them. Another point, the 'money shot' with your number plate does not appear to prove any contravention (ie you were past the bus lane at that point)? You'd need to see the video to see if its a continuous pan or two separate cameras? |
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Wed, 21 Jun 2017 - 06:38
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#15
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
Then familiarise yourself with this argument:-
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1010964 Mick |
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Sat, 1 Jul 2017 - 08:44
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#16
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 2 Joined: 26 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,389 |
So I am in the exact same situation as you, same spot, motorbike in bus lane, high sided vehicle etc....
I have used your response also and send off the challenge. Best of luck! |
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Sat, 15 Jul 2017 - 08:07
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 11 Joined: 19 Apr 2013 Member No.: 61,280 |
I am in exactly the same position.... I was travelling in December on a dark night in gridlocked traffic. I was on a motorbike filtering the traffic. the signs are not clear at night at all. I'm going to a tribunal next week. Its absolute robbery on behalf of the council. The road layout is so unclear. I just hope that common sense prevails.
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Thu, 20 Jul 2017 - 11:53
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 21 Aug 2010 Member No.: 39,947 |
Ok so after about 3 months I received a reply: Challenge Refused.
I've attached the letter. Seems that if I still want to challenge it I need to wait (how long?) until I receive an 'enforcement notice', then I can make a 'formal challenge', then if they still disagree with me I then get to take it to an adjudicator. They say I "gained advantage by jumping the queue of traffic that was waiting in the correct lane" and also that "There are large blue and white signs at the start of the offside bus lane" and "There is sufficient space between the two bus lanes for motorists to remain in the general traffic lane" The sign as shown in their evidence is hidden by the high sided vehicle as I approached, regardless of the fact it appears after the restriction has started. They also say there is space between the bus lanes to remain in the 'general traffic lane'. I was driving in the general traffic lane, on the offside as is normal for a motorcyclist I had no reasonable and logical way to know there was a bus lane upcoming in the offside. There was no 'jumping the queue, just driving as I would normally and being caught out by an extraordinary bus lane & sign placement. Letter jpgs attached. YOUR HELP MOST APPRECIATED! UPDATE: I just phoned them to clarify their letter: It states on the letter the amount currently due is £130, I queried this on the phone and they said it was a mistake and should be £60. They said I could pay that fee now, but once I receive the 'Enforcement notice' the amount due would be £130. They said the enforcement would be sent on August 5th and takes 56 days to respond once I'd sent it. That would be over 5 months since 'date of 'contravention'. Thanks for your time. This post has been edited by luke haig: Thu, 20 Jul 2017 - 12:16 |
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Thu, 20 Jul 2017 - 12:11
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
They have not reoffered the discount so invite you to go to adjudication. This means they think they have a strong case but I think yours is stronger, especially if you can attend in person.
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Thu, 20 Jul 2017 - 13:16
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 89 Joined: 21 Aug 2010 Member No.: 39,947 |
When I phoned them they said the amount on the letter was 'a mistake' should have been the discounted amount.
I thought I'd already challenged and the next step would be the adjudication. But it seems I need to wait for another 'notification to owner', then challenge it again, then wait 56 days for what I'd expect to be another refusal as its coming from the same department as the previous challenge. Then I expect I could go to adjudication. So irritating how they make it such a hassle to challenge & if at any point you miss their letter etc it could spiral out of control. Meanwhile they sit on it for half a year while you have to stress about it. They have not reoffered the discount so invite you to go to adjudication. This means they think they have a strong case but I think yours is stronger, especially if you can attend in person. |
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