Learner Drivers, Three hypothetical questions |
Learner Drivers, Three hypothetical questions |
Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 16:46
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,174 Joined: 10 Aug 2006 From: Surrey Member No.: 7,080 |
Can a learner/their supervisor be guilty of DWDCA whilst the learner is driving?
Can a supervisor be guilty of DUI if the driver is sober? Can a supervisor be guilty of drunk in charge if the driver is sober with the keys in the ignition but the engine off? |
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Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 16:46
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Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 17:01
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,167 Joined: 6 Oct 2012 Member No.: 57,558 |
Are these questions with or without dual controls.
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Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 17:03
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,174 Joined: 10 Aug 2006 From: Surrey Member No.: 7,080 |
All without
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Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 17:14
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13,506 Joined: 9 Jan 2008 From: manchester Member No.: 16,521 |
Can a learner/their supervisor be guilty of DWDCA whilst the learner is driving? NO Can a supervisor be guilty of DUI if the driver is sober? yes Can a supervisor be guilty of drunk in charge if the driver is sober with the keys in the ignition but the engine off? dont think so -------------------- jobo
anyone but Murray, Wish granted for another year, |
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Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 17:27
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 780 Joined: 25 Jul 2013 Member No.: 63,869 |
Can a learner/their supervisor be guilty of DWDCA whilst the learner is driving? Can a supervisor be guilty of DUI if the driver is sober? Can a supervisor be guilty of drunk in charge if the driver is sober with the keys in the ignition but the engine off? 1. No./ Yes Y 2. Yes 3. Yes IMO This post has been edited by jewels2009: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 17:32 |
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Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 17:33
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13,506 Joined: 9 Jan 2008 From: manchester Member No.: 16,521 |
Can a learner/their supervisor be guilty of DWDCA whilst the learner is driving? Can a supervisor be guilty of DUI if the driver is sober? Can a supervisor be guilty of drunk in charge if the driver is sober with the keys in the ignition but the engine off? 1. No./ Yes Y 2. Yes 3. Yes IMO if dual control and pro probably easier to look it up ? but my rational for saying dont thing so to q3 is that a supervisor only becomes such, when the learner is actually driving, as he doesnt need a DL or insurance for that matter to sit in a drivers seat with the engine off, my 6yo does it all the time, then the supervisor isnt a legal requirement and cant be prosecuted for something he isnt actually doing This post has been edited by jobo: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 17:34 -------------------- jobo
anyone but Murray, Wish granted for another year, |
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Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 17:44
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 780 Joined: 25 Jul 2013 Member No.: 63,869 |
Can a learner/their supervisor be guilty of DWDCA whilst the learner is driving? Can a supervisor be guilty of DUI if the driver is sober? Can a supervisor be guilty of drunk in charge if the driver is sober with the keys in the ignition but the engine off? 1. No./ Yes Y 2. Yes 3. Yes IMO if dual control and pro probably easier to look it up ? but my rational for saying dont thing so to q3 is that a supervisor only becomes such, when the learner is actually driving, as he doesnt need a DL or insurance for that matter to sit in a drivers seat with the engine off, my 6yo does it all the time, then the supervisor isnt a legal requirement and cant be prosecuted for something he isnt actually doing But your the adult with the responsibility and means of ignition.. Think drink in charge. ,your six year old no, the supervisor yes, ,. Oh god need a cheap drive home, hi son have a lesson. This post has been edited by jewels2009: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 17:46 |
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Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 18:05
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 9,529 Joined: 5 May 2011 From: UK Member No.: 46,399 |
Can a learner/their supervisor be guilty of DWDCA whilst the learner is driving? Can a supervisor be guilty of DUI if the driver is sober? Can a supervisor be guilty of drunk in charge if the driver is sober with the keys in the ignition but the engine off? 1. No./ Yes Y 2. Yes 3. Yes IMO if dual control and pro probably easier to look it up ? but my rational for saying dont thing so to q3 is that a supervisor only becomes such, when the learner is actually driving, as he doesnt need a DL or insurance for that matter to sit in a drivers seat with the engine off, my 6yo does it all the time, then the supervisor isnt a legal requirement and cant be prosecuted for something he isnt actually doing I would tend to agree re Q3, but a point of law for debate is at what point the driver starts driving. In some offences driving commences as soon as you get behind the wheel on a road. |
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Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 19:22
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 10,460 Joined: 8 Sep 2008 Member No.: 22,424 |
Well its an offence for a supervisor to be using a mobile etc. when out with a learner. Therefore Q2 is a certain yes. Q3 really depends- how can you supervise someone who is sitting in a seat. My guess is that it would all be circumstantial.
Q1 is a tricky one- as without dual controls, the supervisor can't really have any control of the car. |
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Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 19:24
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13,506 Joined: 9 Jan 2008 From: manchester Member No.: 16,521 |
Can a learner/their supervisor be guilty of DWDCA whilst the learner is driving? Can a supervisor be guilty of DUI if the driver is sober? Can a supervisor be guilty of drunk in charge if the driver is sober with the keys in the ignition but the engine off? 1. No./ Yes Y 2. Yes 3. Yes IMO if dual control and pro probably easier to look it up ? but my rational for saying dont thing so to q3 is that a supervisor only becomes such, when the learner is actually driving, as he doesnt need a DL or insurance for that matter to sit in a drivers seat with the engine off, my 6yo does it all the time, then the supervisor isnt a legal requirement and cant be prosecuted for something he isnt actually doing I would tend to agree re Q3, but a point of law for debate is at what point the driver starts driving. In some offences driving commences as soon as you get behind the wheel on a road. ive had this debate at great length on another forum, unfortunate too long ago to remember specifics however from memory, driving requires either motion in one set of case law or the mean of motion in another ie engine running, hold of steering wheel, One example was a guy steering a car from outside, whist is rolled downhill( a slight gradient i imagine) was found to be driving as the car was moving independently of his efforts, conversely if he had been pushing it on the level it would not have been driving. Drunk driving only requires the engine to be running, whilst sat in the drivers seat. to count as driving. no engine DIC,. most RTA offenses are impossible( very difficult) to achieve unless the car is actually moving and insurance doesnt require a driver at all, however there isnt any definition that allows no engine ,no movement to count as driving -------------------- jobo
anyone but Murray, Wish granted for another year, |
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Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 19:49
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 547 Joined: 17 Apr 2004 From: Somerset, near where they make choppers Member No.: 1,108 |
Well its an offence for a supervisor to be using a mobile etc. when out with a learner. Therefore Q2 is a certain yes. Q3 really depends- how can you supervise someone who is sitting in a seat. My guess is that it would all be circumstantial. Q1 is a tricky one- as without dual controls, the supervisor can't really have any control of the car. The Supervisor is still in a position to instruct the driver to either do something that they should be doing or instruct them to stop doing something that they are but shouldnt be doing. Ultimately, anybody supervising a learner can be charged with almost any offence committed by the learner including 'allowing a person to...' type offences. -------------------- The Police ARE The Law, Not ABOVE It...
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Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 19:55
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 10,460 Joined: 8 Sep 2008 Member No.: 22,424 |
Well its an offence for a supervisor to be using a mobile etc. when out with a learner. Therefore Q2 is a certain yes. Q3 really depends- how can you supervise someone who is sitting in a seat. My guess is that it would all be circumstantial. Q1 is a tricky one- as without dual controls, the supervisor can't really have any control of the car. The Supervisor is still in a position to instruct the driver to either do something that they should be doing or instruct them to stop doing something that they are but shouldnt be doing. Ultimately, anybody supervising a learner can be charged with almost any offence committed by the learner including 'allowing a person to...' type offences. Whilst that may be so, I do not believe it would be a decsion to taken lightly to charge a supervisor with careless, as we all know telling someone to do something doesn't always work for various reasons, including panic and sheer rage and refusal. Whilst police may charge someone, I think the CPS would be reluctant to go to court. We see all sorts of cases on the forum and this is one I've never seen. Ever. |
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Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 20:54
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 9,529 Joined: 5 May 2011 From: UK Member No.: 46,399 |
Use, cause, permit.
An instructor who told a learner to do something is in a position of control so can cause an offence of careless. |
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Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 21:08
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 780 Joined: 25 Jul 2013 Member No.: 63,869 |
I'm sorry, it seem to be getting drawn to semantics of law, not the principals beholding them.
Let's change the scenario of place to an armory range for cadet's. Same scenario of weapon, just more objective. Can a learner/their supervisor be guilty of "Firing without cause on an open range, whilst the cadet is firing? Can a supervisor be guilty of dereliction of duty being drunk, whilst supervising the cadet whose sober? Can a supervisor be guilty of drunk in charge if the cadet is sober with the gun loaded in his hands, but the safety on? How say ye now This post has been edited by jewels2009: Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 21:09 |
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Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 21:21
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
An instructor who told a learner to do something is in a position of control so can cause an offence of careless. Aid, abet, counsel or procure, surely? Use, cause, permit doesn't apply to careless. Same sort of thing but different basis. I'm sorry, it seem to be getting drawn to semantics of law, not the principals beholding them. Let's change the scenario of place to an armory range for cadet's. Same scenario of weapon, just more objective. Can a learner/their supervisor be guilty of "Firing without cause on an open range, whilst the cadet is firing? Can a supervisor be guilty of dereliction of duty being drunk, whilst supervising the cadet whose sober? Can a supervisor be guilty of drunk in charge if the cadet is sober with the gun loaded in his hands, but the safety on? How say ye now Is the supervisor subject to military law? What range standing orders are in place? -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 21:49
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,295 Joined: 27 Aug 2010 Member No.: 40,109 |
Well its an offence for a supervisor to be using a mobile etc. when out with a learner. Therefore Q2 is a certain yes. It's an offence for a supervisor to use a mobile phone because the law specifically prohibits him from using a mobile phone (linky). I was under the impression that a drunk supervisor was likely to be guilty of being drunk in charge rather than drink driving - he can quite reasonably be assumed to be in charge of the vehicle, but it would greatly stretch the definition of "driving" to treat him as if he was driving it. And if the law did generally treat him as if he was driving, why would there be a need for separate offences of driving while using a phone and supervising while using a phone? |
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Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 21:54
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
Specific offences are created to avoid hoping a court will interpret the offence widely enough to capture them. However, the general inchoate offences can often be used instead.
-------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 22:05
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 780 Joined: 25 Jul 2013 Member No.: 63,869 |
An instructor who told a learner to do something is in a position of control so can cause an offence of careless. Aid, abet, counsel or procure, surely? Use, cause, permit doesn't apply to careless. Same sort of thing but different basis. I'm sorry, it seem to be getting drawn to semantics of law, not the principals beholding them. Let's change the scenario of place to an armory range for cadet's. Same scenario of weapon, just more objective. Can a learner/their supervisor be guilty of "Firing without cause on an open range, whilst the cadet is firing? Can a supervisor be guilty of dereliction of duty being drunk, whilst supervising the cadet whose sober? Can a supervisor be guilty of drunk in charge if the cadet is sober with the gun loaded in his hands, but the safety on? How say ye now Is the supervisor subject to military law? What range standing orders are in place? 1. Yes both are since one is teaching the other to play on the same field, but Military law no, because it's hypothetical to the public in general. 2. Range standing orders - Sorry but hypothetically lets assume as applied to invited civilians on base. |
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Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 22:12
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
I would say
No. No but depends on the extent of duty. Probably not. -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Tue, 3 Dec 2013 - 22:33
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 780 Joined: 25 Jul 2013 Member No.: 63,869 |
I would say No. No but depends on the extent of duty. Probably not. I'm surprised, but live and learn, pardon the pun. Just for comparison, if military law and bog standard range orders applied(whatever they are ) what would be different if anything with your responses |
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