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Temporary Parking Restrictions - Ambiguous Signage, Received a ticket when parked on temporary restrictions with confusing
HotJon
post Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 20:09
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Hello

I've received a "Notice to Owner" today from Devon County Council relating to a PCN that was apparently issued on the 8th August but wasn't found on my vehicle.

The circumstances are this:
I was parking on a side road, Glen Road, in Sidmouth, Devon during their folk festival. The road had a temporary restriction of parking between 6pm* - 8am* for the duration of the festival "Between these signs"*. (*Bear in mind I thought I was parking legally so didn't take photos and this is from memory - the gist is correct). The restriction took the form of three yellow signs attached to posts with a sheet of A4 and the phrase (from memory) "No parking between these signs"

The road is split into three sections.
- A short section of single yellow lines, about 20m long. This was surrounded by Yellow no parking "between signs" signs (Google Streetview: https://tinyurl.com/y39m5pcp)
- A longer section with no parking restrictions about 50m long. This had a Yellow no parking "between signs" at one end that seemed to relate to the adjacent single yellow section (Google Streeview: https://tinyurl.com/y2w2uctq)
- A second short single yellow sign section about 20m long. This has a standard rectangle Parking Restriction sign at one end and had a yellow "no parking between signs" at the far end(Google Streetview: https://tinyurl.com/y4vlgmw7)

I was parked in the normal unrestricted parking section, slightly south of the single yellow section. I have added a diagram as well as my Notice to Owner to hopefully make this clear.

So there were three yellow signs spanning three separate parking section. the distance between sign 1 and sign 2 was about 20 meters, the distance between sign 2 and sign 3 (the ones I was between) was about 70 meters. The section demarqued by sign 2 and sign 3 covered a single yellow section and a non restricted section.

It was incredibly confusing at the time. The whole section was filled with parked cars. On returning to my car the next day I didn't find a ticket on my car or observe one on others (I was looking as I was a bit concerned at the time).

So:
- Was the signage likely out of order?
- Would this be enough to win an appeal?
- If I appeal, will they will be expected to produce photos to prove sinage was in order, or will the onus be on me to prove their signage was out of order?

Thanks for any assistance / thoughts. Notice and diagram linked below - hopefully works correctly but can try something else if not.:

https://imageshack.com/a/puDH/1

Many thanks

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post Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 20:09
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cp8759
post Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 12:14
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You need to get the officer's photos from the council, they'll either be on the council website or you might need to email them and ask. As it's a temporary restriction we have no other way of assessing the signage.


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HotJon
post Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 15:16
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Thank you, I've found the photos. There is a photo with a ticket on my car - I don;t know, do people get a kick out of removing these?

More importantly there's photo of the sign and the location of my vehicle in relation to the sign. It's doesn't show that I'm between signs though.

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cp8759
post Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 19:04
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I think the council's intention was to prohibit parking between signs 2 and 3 (as labelled on your map), and sign 1 is just a repeater sign. However the phrase "between signs" is undoubtedly ambiguous. Are you in a position to get us photos of all three signs?
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HotJon
post Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 19:28
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Unfortunately not. Had I found a ticket on the car I would have taken lots of photos, but in the absence I assumed I'd parked legally and went on my way. I agree with you about the intention.

So full disclosure: When I parked, it seemed quite clear at the time that the "between signs" notice related to sign 1 and 2, and as it was placing a restriction on the existing legal 6pm - 10am parking period (standard sign shown below) I think that was a reasonable conclusion.

However walking to the bottom of the Glen Road, I did see sign 3. As this was 70m away and at the far end of a second bay of single yellow lines I concluded that this (alongside the time restriction) was banning overnight parking on the second set of single yellows. I did pause to think about this and concluded a) it would be unlikely to place a delimiting sign 70m away crossing bays so b) "between signs" was referring to the standard restriction sign.

I think the signage was genuinely confusing and ambiguous.

Thanks for the input so far. Appreciate any further views.

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cp8759
post Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 20:19
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The signage is meant to be clear and unambiguous and prohibiting parking "between the signs" when there's three signs is clearly confusing. That being said, the council must jump through several procedural hoops to make a TTRO, have a look at this representation which I drafted earlier: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...p;#entry1516852

I would suggest you write a draft representation based on the signage, and then as a secondary point use my draft starting from "However should the council reject my representations..." though of course the name of the police and fire authorities will need to be changed as this was Devon not London.

For your reference the relevant regulations are here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/12...gulation/3/made


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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 23:03
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+1


It is critical that the temporary traffic order be seen because its terms are key to this case. The Contravention is a Code 02 so we are dealing with a TTRO.

Mick
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HotJon
post Thu, 3 Oct 2019 - 12:00
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My appeal was accepted! Here's what I wrote:

====

On 8th August 2019 I parked on Glen Road in Sidmouth. I parked directly to the south of the sign shown in your photograph that restricted parking between 6pm - 10am daily on "Both sides of the road between signs". I noted there were two signs that surrounded the section of single yellow lines immediately to the noth of my parked location. The single yellow lines had a restriction from 10am - 6pm daily so I reasonably concluded the parking suspension applied specifically to the section of yellow lines. I was not parked between these two signs. It was only later I noticed a third sign 70 meters away at the bottom end of Glen Road (he Department for Transport says that signs describing the parking restrictions should be spaced at 30 metres intervals), at the southern end of a second section of single yellow lines. The northern section of the single yellow lines was not demarqued with a terminating sign but is demarqued by a standard single yellow line restriction sign. I was parked between the terminating sign of the southern section of single yellow lines and the northern section of single yellow lines around 55 meters south. There was no other parking restriction sign. I attach a diagram for clarity.

Clearly the signposting was confusing:
- The phrase 'Between signs' is clearly ambiguous
- The time restriction reflecting the single yellow line restriction further compunded the ambiquity.
- The distance between the signs of 70 meters was excessive
- The restricted area spanned seperate parking regions consisting of single yellow lines and free parking, and was confusing


For all of these reasons the alleged contravention did not occur. However should the council reject my representations, the council is invited to supply evidence that it has complied with regulation 3 of The Road Traffic (Temporary Restrictions) Procedure Regulations 1992 and in particular the council is invited to supply:

1) Evidence that the traffic authority published notice of its intention to make the order in one or more newspapers circulating in the area
2) Evidence that the traffic authority gave notice to The Commissioner of Police for Devon and Cornwall
3) Evidence that the traffic authority gave notice to the chief fire officer for Devon
4) Evidence that the traffic authority within 14 days after making the order published a notice of the making of the order in one or more newspapers circulating in the area

I put it to you that failure to supply the above would show that the restriction had not been lawfully imposed and therefore the alleged contravention did not occur.

====

many thanks cp8759 for the advice.

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Incandescent
post Thu, 3 Oct 2019 - 12:34
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Well done !
Obviously they didn't carry out the legal requirements before imposing, (and badly signing), the restriction, but far too many councils don't as almost all people just cough-up if given a PCN. So why spend all the time and money obeying the law ?
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cp8759
post Thu, 3 Oct 2019 - 13:56
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Well done, though for further reference Devon doesn't have a police commissioner, the notification would instead need to go to the Chief Constable of Devon and Cornwall Police.


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