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Parked car for 50 days in a restricted parking zone in London. Help.
JoannaSeirian
post Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 14:23
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Hello,

This is my first time using this site and I'm here in desperation.

In a nutshell: I left my car in a restricted parking area for 50 days because I thought I had parked it somewhere else. unsure.gif

The story: My car spends it's time in a private parking space at my friend's house a few miles from mine.

After meeting the friend whose parking space I use last week he mentioned that he hadn't seen the vehicle in a while. My stomach flipped icon_redface.gif My first thought was that it had been stolen from the space. I had last used the car on the 28th January and would have, as was habit, taken it back to the parking space at 10am the next morning (when the parking restrictions kick in on the road near my house).

After some mind racking my friend recalled that he had not seen the car since early Feb. Which mean that it had been missing for nearly 6 weeks.

Back at home my partner and I started googling the number plate to see if it had been listed anywhere as stolen, or for sale anywhere online.

We had travelled to another UK city at the end of January for my partner's PHD exam, driving back on the 28th.
The day after was a family birthday.

ohmy.gif With the stress and nerves of the PHD exam, then the relief of him passing his PHD, followed by a birthday I had completely forgotten to move the car.

I found it on Thursday morning a couple of streets away but now covered in tickets.

The tickets: There were 5 tickets on the car. Which for 50 days seems low. My worry is that some have blown away. I have received two letters at the house the car is registered to which are for additional dates to the tickets that were on the car. It seems I have 7 separate PCN Hackney council tickets. Ranging from £80 to £130 each.

Any advice, help, anything would be so appreciated. blush.gif

I moved the car on Thursday back to the private parking space. I haven't yet contacted the council. I feel I need to contact them ASAP to freeze anything I can... and get a list of all the offences on the vehicle. Thought I would come here first.

What is my first move?

Jx

This post has been edited by JoannaSeirian: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 17:01
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John U.K.
post Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 14:49
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QUOTE
I found it on Thursday morning a couple of streets away but now covered in tickets.

The tickets: There were 5 tickets on the car. Which for 50 days seems low. My worry is that some have blown away. I have received two letters at the house the car is registered to which are for additional dates to the tickets that were on the car. It seems I have 7 separate PCN Hackney council tickets. Ranging from £80 to £130 each.


You are very very near the problem getting a lot worse, so prompt replies to questions here are essential. You are very lucky that the car has not been towed away - which would have racked up storage charges of £50 per day)!!!. I assume you have now moved the car - please confirm.
With the help of the experts here (I am not one) you should get your losses mitigated, if not totally cancelled.
Some of the many questions they will ask may seem (to you) irrelevant, but they won't be.

1) Straightaway Please post up a time line

Date time car parked at
Date time 1st PCN
Date time 2nd PCN
Date 1st letter
Repeat in chronological order for each PCN and letter.

2) Look carefully at the letters - they will probaby be headed Notice to Owner - please confirm. Please keep the envelopes and check the postmark date matches the date on the letter for each.

3) Then, as usual, A.S.A.P. please post up the 1st PCN (both sides) the other four PCNs (front only unless back differ from 1st) and copies of all letters received (all sides).
Also post up a GSV (Google Street View) link to the location.
Do not attach docs/photos, but use this method:
Photo or scan. see http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=36858&st=0
for how to do it. I use Tinypic for stage 2 with no problems.

Redact/obscure personal details, PCN no. Reg No.
LEAVE IN all dates/times; precise location, Contravention code and description.

4) Is your vehicle registered to the address where it is normally kept?

5) were you parked in an area with a 24/7 restriction?
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JoannaSeirian
post Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 16:18
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Thank you so much for your response. Here is all the info I can supply so far…

I’ve just phoned Hackney Services and they have been able to give me a breakdown of all the PCNs involving this vehicle. I’ve also just checked the times of the offences using the PCN number on the Hackney Council website.

It’s worse than I thought. There are 13 offences, currently totalling £1,340.
Although there are two on the same day, which apparently doesn't count?

I first parked the car in the spot where the offences happened on Friday the 29th Jan after midday (around 2pm).

The parking restrictions are ‘resident permit holders only ‘10am-12midday Mon-Fri.’

The first PCN was on Monday 1st Feb.

Also, the car is registered to another property that I own in Wales, not the one I currently live in. (I’ve only recently started using the car in London). So the letters have been going there. I am asking a relative to list the letters for me.

Here are the PCNs

1. 01/02/2016 10:23
2. 03/02/2016 10:24
3. 08/02/2016 10:57
4. 09/02/2016 10:40
5. 09/02/2016 10:17
6. 11/02/2016 10:35
7. 15/02/2016 10:20
8. 18/02/1016 10:40
9. 22/02/2016 11:44
10. 23/02/2016 11:46
11. 01/03/2016 10:47
12. 02/03/2016 10:37
13. 03/03/2016 10:41


Letters to follow.

Google maps to location: http://bit.ly/1UfEe9K

This post has been edited by JoannaSeirian: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 16:19
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 16:59
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You should be able to get some photos from the council web site, please post them. also as john as asked all of the pcn's We need to check them there all beyond the discount
so lets see if we can help minimize you penalty.

Have a read of this thread

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=94572


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JoannaSeirian
post Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 17:03
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Thanks pastmybest.
One quick thing: Should I appeal them individually or try and have them lumped together as one offence?
My gut is to go for one offence but I'm worried that in doing that some of the tickets will go past their appeal date.

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John U.K.
post Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 17:13
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QUOTE
I am asking a relative to list the letters for me.
Any chance of your relative scanning and e-mailing them to you? Remember to get them to keep envelopes and note postmark dates for each.
Here are the PCNs
1. 01/02/2016 10:23
2. 03/02/2016 10:24
3. 08/02/2016 10:57
4. 09/02/2016 10:40
5. 09/02/2016 10:17
6. 11/02/2016 10:35
7. 15/02/2016 10:20
8. 18/02/1016 10:40
9. 22/02/2016 11:44
10. 23/02/2016 11:46
11. 01/03/2016 10:47
12. 02/03/2016 10:37
13. 03/03/2016 10:41


You will have missed the discount on all of these. You should have received NtOs for 1-9 and the others will follow. Depending on the date of the 1st NtO, the deadline for responding to it will 28 March but may be later if NtO was served later. .

Letters to follow.

Google maps to location: http://bit.ly/1UfEe9K


Please copy and paste the link for the Google Street View (rather than the map) of exact location.

QUOTE
The parking restrictions are ‘resident permit holders only ‘10am-12midday Mon-Fri.’


So, this was a marked bay? Single bay or continuous?

Now you have begun posting more details see what the experts here have to say.

Possible defences might include
mitigating circumstances - but 50day amnesia ????
continuous contravention - but the authority will argue that a two-hour restriction means each offence is clearly separate.
grossly disproportionate - this might be your best defence - have a read of this thread http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=103910

some flaw in the pcn, signage, road markings - the experts here will highlight anything here

We must know the date of the first NtO (Notice to Owner) as it essential that you make representations to it in time.
In those you will list all the PCNs and ask for them to be considered together.

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 16:59) *
You should be able to get some photos from the council web site, please post them. also as john as asked all of the pcn's We need to check them there all beyond the discount
so lets see if we can help minimize you penalty.

Have a read of this thread

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=94572



PMB
Not sure how thread you quote relates?
Regards
John

This post has been edited by John U.K.: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 17:14
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 17:16
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You will no doubt have received Notice to owner documents for some. They will have gone to the vehicle RK address as on the v5c
Get those documents. they need dealing with first, They are issued after 28 days from date of contravention and must be dealt with (at risk of a bol***king from others)
within 28 days of date of service

It would be better if they can all be dealt with at the same time certainly if they go to adjudication


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hcandersen
post Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 17:36
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OP, your reckless disregard for registering the vehicle where it is normally kept could cost you ££££££. But there were are.

If we give you an overview of the process, you and your PhD partner can think this through and anticipate the problems and actions which you need to take.

As regards the PCNs, these are not demands for penalties, they simply inform the driver that a contravention has been committed and that unless the penalty (discount or full) is paid within the specified periods then a Notice to Owner (NTO) demanding the penalty would be sent to the registered keeper demanding payment. A NTO also offers the right to make representations to the authority, again within a specified time period. Should reps not be received within that time period then the penalty may be increased by 50% and the right to appeal would have been lost.

If reps are made and rejected then the keeper may take the matter to adjudication with only the full penalty in play.

It doesn't take a PhD (but it can't do any harm!) to work out that the key issues are to make representations against any NTOs and appeal if these are rejected.

Which means that the first priority is to identify the NTOs received, the ends of their periods for making reps and get these submitted.

As a NTO may not be issued before 28 days have elapsed since the PCN was issued and as a NTO allows 28 days to make reps you can work out that at least 56 days must elapse before you're in the proverbial with any PCN.

The first PCN is dated 1 Feb, therefore this +56 = 27 March, only 6 days hence.

Get the NTOs for the PCNs dated 1 and 3rd because these must be actioned ASP. This will buy us the necessary time to work out a plan.

Roger so far?
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Incandescent
post Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 19:54
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QUOTE
Also, the car is registered to another property that I own in Wales, not the one I currently live in. (I’ve only recently started using the car in London). So the letters have been going there. I am asking a relative to list the letters for me.


No mail re-direction ?

I am somewhat puzzled your car was not towed away. A council should not really have issued so many PCNs but that is up to them, it is not unlawful. However, by not towing, and not issuing a PCN every day, your penalty is smaller than one would expect for leaving the car so long. Their actions are illogical. If not towing, why not a PCN every day the restriction is in force ?

There have been successful appeals based on "single contravention" but it is by no means a guaranteed winning appeal ground. This appeal is based on no movement of the car since the car was parked, hence only the 1st PCN is valid. One London Tribunals adjudicator, has changed his mind on this recently, and no longer accepts this appeal ground, (or at least didn't in the case before him). However, nothing to be lost by appealing on this basis.

Essentially, you are bang-to-rights and not in a strong position, but as the discount has gone, it is in Hackneys interests to come to an agreeable settlement as the adjudicator may agree with a "single contravention" appeal in which case they would get only the money for the first PCN. Others here will no doubt suggest other avenues on which to proceed.
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JoannaSeirian
post Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 21:10
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Understood. I'm waiting for my relative to send me photos of the NTOs. I should have them this evening.

Is there anything I can do in the meantime? Aside from upload photos of the PCNs?

Thanks in advance for all your help.

I mentioned the PHD to give a picture of the kind of stress and relief that clouded the day. On an ordinary day we would not have forgotten to move the vehicle. Just to be clear on why that detail is relevant.



QUOTE (Incandescent @ Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 19:54) *
QUOTE
Also, the car is registered to another property that I own in Wales, not the one I currently live in. (I’ve only recently started using the car in London). So the letters have been going there. I am asking a relative to list the letters for me.


No mail re-direction ?

I am somewhat puzzled your car was not towed away. A council should not really have issued so many PCNs but that is up to them, it is not unlawful. However, by not towing, and not issuing a PCN every day, your penalty is smaller than one would expect for leaving the car so long. Their actions are illogical. If not towing, why not a PCN every day the restriction is in force ?

There have been successful appeals based on "single contravention" but it is by no means a guaranteed winning appeal ground. This appeal is based on no movement of the car since the car was parked, hence only the 1st PCN is valid. One London Tribunals adjudicator, has changed his mind on this recently, and no longer accepts this appeal ground, (or at least didn't in the case before him). However, nothing to be lost by appealing on this basis.

Essentially, you are bang-to-rights and not in a strong position, but as the discount has gone, it is in Hackneys interests to come to an agreeable settlement as the adjudicator may agree with a "single contravention" appeal in which case they would get only the money for the first PCN. Others here will no doubt suggest other avenues on which to proceed.



Thanks for this. Could they not argue that it does not qualify for single contravention due to the 10-12 midday restriction on the parking- i.e: the rules start afresh every day. Would I have grounds here if I could prove the car had not ben moved in that time?
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hcandersen
post Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 21:28
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NTO 1 (for PCN no. 1): a soft challenge, terribly sorry, life pressures, forgot where I'd parked my car which was therefore left for **** days, pl exercise discretion.

IMO, you should get the issue of how long your car was parked in your first challenge because it sets the scene.

NTO 2: contravention did not occur because car was stationary continuously from *** to ***. Although the restriction was discontinuous this does not mean that the contravention was not continuous and that therefore only a single PCN could and should have been issued. As I understand it, *** were served on my stationary vehicle over a period of *** days. If the authority do not accept these reps then they should provide a legal basis for serving PCNs on successive days for the same continuous contravention.
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JoannaSeirian
post Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 21:35
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QUOTE (John U.K. @ Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 17:13) *
QUOTE
I am asking a relative to list the letters for me.
Any chance of your relative scanning and e-mailing them to you? Remember to get them to keep envelopes and note postmark dates for each.

Yes they are doing tonight.

Here are the PCNs
1. 01/02/2016 10:23
2. 03/02/2016 10:24
3. 08/02/2016 10:57
4. 09/02/2016 10:40
5. 09/02/2016 10:17
6. 11/02/2016 10:35
7. 15/02/2016 10:20
8. 18/02/1016 10:40
9. 22/02/2016 11:44
10. 23/02/2016 11:46
11. 01/03/2016 10:47
12. 02/03/2016 10:37
13. 03/03/2016 10:41


You will have missed the discount on all of these. You should have received NtOs for 1-9 and the others will follow. Depending on the date of the 1st NtO, the deadline for responding to it will 28 March but may be later if NtO was served later. .

Letters to follow.

Google maps to location: http://bit.ly/1UfEe9K


Please copy and paste the link for the Google Street View (rather than the map) of exact location.

Here is the Google Street View link, the car was parked where the silver vehicle is positioned here: http://bit.ly/1S11hyB

QUOTE
The parking restrictions are ‘resident permit holders only ‘10am-12midday Mon-Fri.’


So, this was a marked bay? Single bay or continuous?

Continuous I think? I"m unsure, the restriction applies on a stretch of road marked by white lines.

Now you have begun posting more details see what the experts here have to say.

Possible defences might include
mitigating circumstances - but 50day amnesia ????
continuous contravention - but the authority will argue that a two-hour restriction means each offence is clearly separate.
grossly disproportionate - this might be your best defence - have a read of this thread http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=103910

Agreed, will wait to see what others say.

some flaw in the pcn, signage, road markings - the experts here will highlight anything here

We must know the date of the first NtO (Notice to Owner) as it essential that you make representations to it in time.
In those you will list all the PCNs and ask for them to be considered together.

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 16:59) *
You should be able to get some photos from the council web site, please post them. also as john as asked all of the pcn's We need to check them there all beyond the discount
so lets see if we can help minimize you penalty.

The PCNs are pretty long so I have spread the image across two photos. Will this be accepted, or should I zoom out and try and fit in one shot?

Have a read of this thread

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=94572



PMB
Not sure how thread you quote relates?
Regards
John


Thank you so much for this, really clear and logical advice.


QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 21:28) *
NTO 1 (for PCN no. 1): a soft challenge, terribly sorry, life pressures, forgot where I'd parked my car which was therefore left for **** days, pl exercise discretion.

IMO, you should get the issue of how long your car was parked in your first challenge because it sets the scene.

NTO 2: contravention did not occur because car was stationary continuously from *** to ***. Although the restriction was discontinuous this does not mean that the contravention was not continuous and that therefore only a single PCN could and should have been issued. As I understand it, *** were served on my stationary vehicle over a period of *** days. If the authority do not accept these reps then they should provide a legal basis for serving PCNs on successive days for the same continuous contravention.



Got it. I agree.
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peterguk
post Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 21:38
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 21:28) *
NTO 2: contravention did not occur because car was stationary continuously from *** to ***. Although the restriction was discontinuous this does not mean that the contravention was not continuous and that therefore only a single PCN could and should have been issued. As I understand it, *** were served on my stationary vehicle over a period of *** days. If the authority do not accept these reps then they should provide a legal basis for serving PCNs on successive days for the same continuous contravention.


Asking as part of learning process biggrin.gif

In another recent thread, a similar restriction existed (part of a 24 hour period), and it was pointed out that even though car not moved for 3 days, the multiple tickets received were all technically separate offences, i.e. not a continuous offence.

So why is this situation different?


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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 21:42
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you are entitled to the protection of the law for minor offences as well as minor ones and an adjudicator is low level judiciary



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Neil B
post Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 21:46
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It might seem a daft question but why do you not use the car more often?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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2cupsofcoffee
post Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 22:12
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 21:46) *
It might seem a daft question but why do you not use the car more often?


Neil - London, innit? Usually easier/quicker to use tube/bus/bike. When I lived in London I could easily go 3-4 weeks without using my car and when I did it was either a major supermarket shop or to leave London to visit friends. I was lucky enough to have off-road parking though.

This post has been edited by 2cupsofcoffee: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 22:12
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Neil B
post Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 22:23
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QUOTE (2cupsofcoffee @ Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 22:12) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 21:46) *
It might seem a daft question but why do you not use the car more often?


Neil - London, innit? Usually easier/quicker to use tube/bus/bike. When I lived in London I could easily go 3-4 weeks without using my car and when I did it was either a major supermarket shop or to leave London to visit friends. I was lucky enough to have off-road parking though.

Well, yes but there was a point to the question if it goes beyond that. I hope she understood it was meant to, potentially, help.

(You're not supposed to be here btw rolleyes.gif wink.gif )

This post has been edited by Neil B: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 22:25


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 22:24
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PMB
Not sure how thread you quote relates?
Regards
John

Multiple pcn's how the council and adjudicator dealt with them


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Neil B
post Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 22:31
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 21:38) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 21:28) *
NTO 2: contravention did not occur because car was stationary continuously from *** to ***. Although the restriction was discontinuous this does not mean that the contravention was not continuous and that therefore only a single PCN could and should have been issued. As I understand it, *** were served on my stationary vehicle over a period of *** days. If the authority do not accept these reps then they should provide a legal basis for serving PCNs on successive days for the same continuous contravention.


Asking as part of learning process biggrin.gif

In another recent thread, a similar restriction existed (part of a 24 hour period), and it was pointed out that even though car not moved for 3 days, the multiple tickets received were all technically separate offences, i.e. not a continuous offence.

So why is this situation different?


Erm; I'll plead 'guilty' to that one Peter huh.gif

Technically yes but I should have said there have been adjudications contrary to that.
It depends, I think, on the circumstances of each case.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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JoannaSeirian
post Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 22:31
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 22:23) *
QUOTE (2cupsofcoffee @ Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 22:12) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 21 Mar 2016 - 21:46) *
It might seem a daft question but why do you not use the car more often?


Neil - London, innit? Usually easier/quicker to use tube/bus/bike. When I lived in London I could easily go 3-4 weeks without using my car and when I did it was either a major supermarket shop or to leave London to visit friends. I was lucky enough to have off-road parking though.

Well, yes but there was a point to the question if it goes beyond that. I hope she understood it was meant to, potentially, help.

(You're not supposed to be here btw rolleyes.gif wink.gif )


Hey Neil, exactly as 2cups says. I've only recently been in London full time. Before that I was splitting my time between here and elsewhere. Now I'm here I only use the car for trips outside London every couple of months, or big trips to IKEA etc.

I've missed the bit you thought I might understand- what were you referring to? blush.gif


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