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URGENT: Court Papers - Civil Enforcement Ltd, Help with Defence against CEL
RichardW
post Thu, 27 Apr 2017 - 01:30
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Situation - I have been served with Court Papers claiming about UKP350, relating to a disputed parking infringement from last July.

Papers dated 7th April; I only received the papers today as I'm currently living overseas and they just reached me last night.

First and critical question - am I now timed out from making a defence? It looks like I had to lodge an acknowledgement of service within 14 days and my defence in 28.

If there is an ability to mount a defence please let me know what I need to do right now. Will then post some further information about the supposed parking infringement.
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post Thu, 27 Apr 2017 - 01:30
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RichardW
post Sat, 13 May 2017 - 04:09
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I have contested jurisdiction but the Court has yet to come back to me confirming there is no case.

I certainly was not going to fall foul of failing to submit a defence in the 28 days, so I put that in as well. Perhaps belt and braces, but I'm damned if CEL are going to succeed by default.
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RichardW
post Wed, 17 May 2017 - 00:20
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A somewhat salutory tale about contesting jurisdiction.

As was recommended, I contested jurisdiction when responding to court papers, as I live overseas. I received the attached letter, which helpfully told me:

1. I needed to fill out an application form to contest jurisdiction
2. I had to pay 255 quid for the privilege
3. There's no guarantee my request would be properly dealt with - it is at the discretion of the judge
4. Because of time limits on Acknowledgement of Service, and lodging a defence, I am already timed out (it's a bit ridiculous, but it's taken nearly three weeks for them to respond to my initial enquiry about jurisdiction, so if you don't know the process, you're pretty much stuffed from the outset)

Given the above, I'm not going to bother further with jurisdiction; it's 255 to the Court vs 330 for CEL, and I don't think CEL have much of a case, or stomach for a fight. Fortunately I have lodged a defence anyway.

We live and learn - hope this info might be useful to someone else though.

Richard

Good afternoon,

Thank you for your recent enquiry.

If you think that a claim should not be dealt with at the County Court level you may apply to contest Jurisdiction using the N244 ‘Application Notice’. Please note that contesting Jurisdiction does not refer to the claim being issued by the County Court Business Centre. The County Court Business Centre issues claims to defendants across England and Wales but no hearings are held at the Business Centre. If the claim needs to be listed for a hearing it will be transferred to another County Court Hearing Centre. If the claim has been issued against you as an individual then this should be your nearest County Court Hearing Centre.

Please note, either a defence / counterclaim or application to contest Jurisdiction should be submitted within 14 days of the date of service or you risk a default Judgment being entered against you. This can be extended to 28 days from the date of service by filing an acknowledgment of service. If you do not make an application within 14 days, this will be treated as you accepting that the court has jurisdiction to try the claim and the case will proceed.

If you wish to apply please read this letter thoroughly before sending the application to the court as incorrectly completed applications will be returned to you. Electronic versions of all forms referred to in this letter are available to download at www.justice.gov.uk/forms.

From 21st March 2016 there is a £255.00 court fee to process the application, payable by cheque or postal order to HMCTS. Any applications after this date with the old fee will be returned. If you cannot afford to pay this fee you can check if you are eligible for help with fees by downloading the EX160A booklet. If you have already paid the application fee you can file the completed forms via email at ccbcfees@hmcts.gsi.gov.uk. Card payments for application fees can be taken by contacting the Helpdesk on the above number between 9.30 and 3.15, Monday – Friday.

Please note, an application to contest Jurisdiction is not automatically granted. The outcome of your application is at the discretion of the District Judge or court appointed Legal Advisor.

If you require any further information please contact our helpdesk on the number above. Alternatively you can email us at ccbc@hmcts.gsi.gov.uk; Please ensure that you state the above case number in the subject heading of your email.

You may also find it useful to visit the frequently asked questions (FAQ’s) section of our website. To locate this page you should go to www.justice.gov.uk and search for ‘CCBC’.

Information on submitting an N244 Application to contest Jurisdiction
If the claim has been issued against two defendants and you would both like to contest
Jurisdiction, you can complete one N244. You must include both of your names on the
application form and ensure that you both sign Part 11 of the form.
Complete form N244 as follows:
• Quote your Claim number in the relevant box on the top right of the N244.
• In questions 1 and 2 clarify who you are and how you are related to the
claim e.g. Defendant, Solicitor etc…
• In question 3 write that the order you are seeking is to ‘contest Jurisdiction of the
claim’ and provide a reason why you think the claim should not be dealt with by
the County Courts.
• It is not necessary to complete questions 4 – 9
• In question 10 clarify what evidence you wish to rely on in support of your
application, if necessary providing any further details in the box provided.
• Sign the statement of truth in section 10.
• The applicant must sign the application in section 11; third party signatures
are not accepted.
If you do not comply with the above the application will be returned to you.
What happens next?
Once you have paid the fee, or the court has confirmed you are eligible for help with
fees via the EX160 procedure, the case will be transferred to a County Court Hearing
Centre. If the claim has been issued against you as an individual this should be your
local County Court Hearing Centre. A hearing will then be listed for your application to
be heard.
The guidelines contained within this letter are not legal advice. Court staff are not
legally trained or responsible for the outcome of your case. You may wish to seek
assistance from a solicitor or local Citizens Advice Bureau.

I hope this assists you with your query, but should you require any further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us.


If you are a claimant please click here for our Money Claim Online User Guide which includes detailed and useful information about all aspects of your claim progression.
Regards,
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ostell
post Wed, 17 May 2017 - 06:16
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That sounds like a proper "Jobs Worth" reply. Hopefully your letter is in with the case papers and the judge behaves sensibly in the matter.
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RichardW
post Wed, 17 May 2017 - 13:13
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Hope so. But the whole thing seems designed to deny defendants a legitimate right to contest jurisdiction.

Don't know if this will come before a judge anyway. I understand CEL aren't very aggressive on following up properly defended court papers. After all their case is very poorly worded; they talk solely about the driver despite it being made clear I am the keeper not the driver (and was out of the country at the time!).

I feel pretty confident my defence will be enough to see them off - thanks to the help I've received here.
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 17 May 2017 - 22:41
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I'd respond back, stating the court has adequate case management powers to decide themselves in whether they hsve jurisdiction. A defendant overseas cannot be subject to the courts jurisdiction unless the claimant has had this granted. As the claimant has not done so, you suggest the court strikes the claim as having no prospect of success and to save both claimant and purported defendant further costs.
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RichardW
post Thu, 18 May 2017 - 13:35
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Nosferatu, thank you for that. I hadn't realised I could pursue this further.

I will send a further note to the Court and see what I get back.

Thanks,
Richard
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RichardW
post Thu, 18 May 2017 - 13:53
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Sent to Court today:

I have received your recent email correspondence concerning my request to contest jurisdiction, which arrived too late for me to take action according to the formal process you have set out.

I would ask that you consider how unreasonable this process is. You have now advised me that I have to serve the necessary forms (and pay the relevant court fee) within 28 days of service of the original Court papers. Yet you have only told me this after the expiry of that 28 day period. This is grossly unfair. Franz Kafka would have been proud.

Nonetheless, I am advised that the Court has adequate case management powers to decide for themselves whether they have jurisdiction. A defendant overseas cannot be subject to the Court’s jurisdiction unless the claimant has had this granted. The claimant has made no such application and so no grant has been given. Accordingly, I suggest the court strikes the claim as having no reasonable prospect of success, and to save both claimant and purported defendant further costs.

R

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RichardW
post Thu, 18 May 2017 - 14:05
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Just another thought on the jurisdiction issue. Suppose the Court decides it has jurisdiction and CEL decide to proceed with the case.

I would defend, as I will not be bullied into submission, and I would take my day in Court.

I would have to fly in from Asia to do so. If I am successful (which I'm confident I would be) I assume that I would be able to claim costs. These would include the costs of travel and accommodation for the days I am in the UK. Surely these would be costs associated solely with my case as I would have no other reason to return to the UK?

Also if I did that I would have to forego 2-3 days of per diem billing (I am paid by the day). That would also be a cost I would want to claim.

I wondered if I should point this out to CEL? These costs would run into the thousands without being in any way unreasonable. Would it encourage them just to drop the case?

This post has been edited by RichardW: Thu, 18 May 2017 - 14:07
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ostell
post Thu, 18 May 2017 - 16:19
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Unfortunately this is the small claims track and costs are very very limited. Your per diem, for example, would be limited to £95 per day.
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 19 May 2017 - 09:50
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I would suggest yo uwrite to CEL directly and adivse that, as you are outside the jurisdiction of the E&W courts, they should imediately dorp the case to save them embarassment

State that, shoul dthey wish to proceed further, that you will hold them liable for your costs associated with their vexatious action. This will include flights, accomodaiton, and loss of earnings.
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emanresu
post Sat, 20 May 2017 - 05:54
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QUOTE
I would suggest yo uwrite to CEL directly and adivse that, as you are outside the jurisdiction of the E&W courts, they should imediately dorp the case to save them embarassment


This is not a jurisdiction question but a location question. The event was in England and Wales but the defendant is located somewhere else that makes it difficult if not impossible to defend. Think Scots or Northern Irish drivers who get a ticket in England.

The point to make is a Case Management one which is that you cannot attend court in the foreseeable future are you are not coming back to the UK. Hence when the local court sets a date it should be postponed until such time as you are back and able to defend. See if you can get your £255 back while informing the court about the problems with Case Management.

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RichardW
post Mon, 22 May 2017 - 15:01
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Many thanks again for the additional thoughts and advice.

Just to be clear, while I have sent the Court a note that I wish to contest jurisdiction, I have not filed the papers nor paid the 255! Apart from anything else, I was timed out by the time they informed me of the process.

I have written to the Court, as suggested, advising that they have the necessary case management powers to decide on jurisdiction (in my favour). I won't be back in the UK for some time as things stand so I guess that, if things proceed, I would then negotiate with the Court to set a date.

I'm pretty confident in my defence (thanks to all of your advice), so not fearful of having the jurisdiction issue go against me. As things stand, I'm going to wait until May 30th before taking further action; that's 28 days after lodging my defence and would see an automatic stay if CEL don't choose to push on.

My read (based on other posts on here) is that CEL are probably unlikely to proceed on a case where they can only try to invoke Keeper Liability and are off the pace on POFA compliance. My one question would be this - if they chose not to say whether the case was dropped or not, when would proceedings automatically lapse? biggrin.gif

R
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 23 May 2017 - 06:40
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We know you havent paid. We're not suggesting you pay

You will, however, get sent a Directions Questionairre. That asks when you will be able to attend court. You can truthfully state there is NO time when you will be able to attend court. Your overseas address should clue them in.

A stay is indefinite. It can be lifted by paying the court the requisite fee.
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RichardW
post Tue, 4 Jul 2017 - 12:39
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So, have finally received a notification from the Court that the claim has been stayed.

Many thanks to you all for your help to get me to this place. Couldn't have contested it without this forum!

Next steps...Do CEL ever bother trying to lift a stay, or is that effectively it for their claim?

What would happen if they tried to lift the stay? How would I be informed (my worry being about postage to my overseas address).

Is there anything I can do now to get the claim struck out? Is it worth doing that or is it best to let sleeping dogs lie?
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 4 Jul 2017 - 13:21
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The chance of them paying £100/£255 to lift it seems unlikely, given their usual tactic is to discontinue before the hearing.

Did you provide the court your curret address? That is where the court will send any notice that the claim has been unstayed.

No, you can do nothing without applying to the court and paying.
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