Hi all,
On 30th Jan my car was caught on a camera doing 37mph in a 30.
Letter regarding this was sent on 5th Feb.
I sent the driver details back asap.
(I was pregnant at the time and just found out my "partner" was having an affair. We had gone for a drive (he was driving) to talk rather than being stuck in the house. He even asked me to take the offence and do the speeding course for him as I had more free time. Obviously I said no way and furiously filled the form out and posted it off)
Fast forward to 17th September and an SJP comes to me. For speeding and failing to give drivers details!
The police have enclosed the pictures and luckily you can see the driver is male.
What do I do with regards to the plea? Any advice would be great.
From what you say, it appears your driver nomination never arrived.
As you were not the driver, you can't do a deal with the prosecutor as is often recommended, and defending the S.172 charge is going to be difficult.
Did you get proof of postage?
No I didn't. I just filled out the back of the notice of intended prosecution and posted it.
Stupid yes but all of a sudden I was pregnant, on my own with 2 children already and looking for a new home.
Am I screwed on this?
A bad situation all around. Do you have any witnesses who can corroborate that you responded and sent the notice back? Even if they can corroborate parts of your story, such as completing the notice, putting it in the envelope etc it bolsters your account. It seems like you’d have no reason not to return the notice - it doesn’t seem like you’d have wanted to protect your ex from the consequences.
Your only real options here are to fight or fold. Fight and you may be (and ought to be, on your account) be acquitted. Fail and it’s six points, a fine of roughly 150% of your weekly income, a surcharge of 10% of the fine (min £30) and costs of several hundred pounds.
Fold and it’s the same as above but the fine would be reduced by 1/3 and the costs would be £85.
Thank you.
I don't want to fold as it's the principle of it (perhaps not the best attitude for a possible court hearing) I don't want to take the fall for him
My address hasn't changed as I am still at the house. There were definitely no reminders.
Could I put him as a witness if he would admit it was him driving?
They can’t convict you of speeding, they have no evidence you were driving.
They can convict you of failing to provide details, who was driving isn’t really relevant to that except it’s quite clear you personally didn’t have anything to gain, and given your situation at the time arguably would have been overjoyed to name him.
If he could evidence the filling in of the form and entering the postal system would be good...
Fortunately perverting the course of justice didn't occur. The cheek!
Haha I know. I couldn't believe he even suggested it. I wouldn't have done it even if he hadn't been having it away with someone else.
The black and white photocopy that I have of the pictures is very obvious to me that it's a male. Would they have the actual original photo image that I presume is even clearer?
Almost certainly, but the thrust of any defence is that you did nominate the driver and posted the reply.
(Not being the driver may only assist in showing you had no reason not to reply)
Ok,so I'll go with not guilty and go to court (gulp)
So they may drop the speeding but still with hold the part where I didn't give details? Or in a miracle case aquit me of both?
You cannot be convicted of the speeding. (Not least as it wasn't you!)
Such charges are 'dual listed' to give the defendant the opportunity to 'plea bargain' (the more serious charge for the lessor) - but only if they were driving.
Silly question, but did you only name one person on the form, fill in all the boxes and didn't add any comments indicating any doubt over the driver (ie. I think it was me)?
No I just put him. I know it was him.
Can I make any kind of plea bargain as I wasn't the driver? Or do I just have to accept that I will be done for not supplying details as I have no proof, except that it is him in the picture...
What sort of plea bargain? The only bargain is to plead guilty to speeding, but you know you weren’t and the photo shows you weren’t.
So you are left defending the S172 on the basis that you did reply and it wasn’t reasonably practicable for you to be aware that they hadn’t received it.
You definitely posted the reply? Or could you have left the filled in reply by the door to post next time you went out, and it disappeared meaning you forgot all about it, but believe you posted it?
What I'm getting at is could your ex have disposed of it whilst you believed it was posted?
Is there a statement from a CTO tubby stating what was sent, etc.?
CTO tubby?
What's that?
I posted it, at the end of my road.
Ah man they're going to do me for it aren't they. As if he didn't make me feel sh*t enough. I'll now have points and a fine as a lasting memory!
What's a CTO tubby?
At the moment we don’t know if they lost your reply, or your reply was equivocal, or they sent a nip to your ex And the reply they got made them think you had not complied with the request properly.
Others will be able give more advice but you need to know the evidence you will be facing to decide if pleading guilty is the better course of actions.
However, you have a plausible story and appear to have nothing to gain by not replying so I’d be optimistic if it was me.
Sorry a pessimistic moment. Just feel screwed over again. I'll confirm what docs I have in the morn and hopefully there's something we can use!
Indeed, at the moment you appear to have a pretty good chance of defending this, based on the info you have given, because you really had NO reason NOT to nominate your ex, and frankly a fair few reasons TO nominate him!
The questions here are not meant to suggest you have no or a slim hope - we''re trying to find all and any angles on this so you have as much support as possible
He's the one with the bigger problem if he named her
She says the picture clearly shows a male driver
Ok so my charges are:
Speeding exceeding 30mph. Automatic Camera Device
Fail to give information relating to ID of driver when required.
I have a section 20 certificate - Contravention of speed limit.
Detailing that car was caught on a Siemens Safezone camera.
Where it was operating, car make and model recorded in excess of 30mph speed limit.
This caused the device to produce a record in the form of photographs and data compromising exhibit EMP/1 which is then shown over leaf.
The device recorded the speed at 37mph.
Date signed 18.04.18.
There is then a witness statement. From the Camera Technician and Enforcement officer stating that he is employed by ******* police and what his duties are.
That the system auto populated a combine NIP and request u set section 172. Sent on 5th Feb.
It then says at the bottom of the letter.
"I can confirm that I have checked the computer system for a reply to section 172 request and there is no record of a reply to this request being received from the defendant. The system is such that the absence of a reply indicates no reply has been received"
Ok so your reply either didn’t arrive or,was lost internally. It doesn’t really matter which.
The law provides a defence if it’s not reasonably practicable to reply within 28 days, in your case while you sent it, it’s arguably not a reply unless received, but as they appear from their own evidence to have not sent a reminder (most areas do) then it wasn’t reasonably practicable to send it again!
Definitely no reminder....
So I would go for not guilty on both counts.
State driver not me. I did respond.
I have zero reason to not tell them who the driver was. Should I give back ground detail as to why I was so hellbent on getting the paperwork back? Or is that just tittle tattle to them?
Not looking forward to that at all.
Ok I'm going to do the not guilty plea today. Shall I put everything in the mitigating circumstances on the form?
No - mitigation is for guilty pleas (or after having been found guilty).
You simply plead not guilty - I would add a simple "the driver nomination was completed and returned as required" so they know the basis of the case, which you would have to disclose anyway.
Then you wait for notification of a court date.
Ah right ok. Do you have any idea of how long these dates take to come through?
Also, can I take my baby with me? Not the greatest place to take her but she's breast fed.
Obviously I will get someone to wait outside the court room with her!!
The 2 boys I can get looked after
It all depends how busy the court is in the area, but do not expect it to happen very quickly. There will be a waiting area for people waiting for their cases to come on and witnesses, so there will be somewhere where you can sit with your baby and someone to look after her while you are in the court room.
Great, thanks everyone for your help!
Hi all,
I am in court tomorrow at 10am for
Speeding and Failure to give driver details
I pleaded not guilty on line as I wasn't driving, it was my partner at the time and I did send the paperwork.
So my letter giving me my court days says that...
The magistrate has decided it should go to a hearing before a full magistrates court (sounds frightening)
Reason- For a case management hearing (deft to attend) so that the court can decide how the trial will be conducted. Then it will be adjourned to another date when there is sufficient time to heat it in full.
If I attend, to arrive 30 mins early.
If I don't attend they may still deal with it in my absence.
If they don't have up to date info about my finances I may be ordered to pay a fine more than I can afford.
I know that writing all that makes it look pretty self explanatory, but do I literally wait to be called in, go in and say what happened and see what they say. Should I write down my incoming and outgoings to hand over?
Should I speak to the court staff first?
Was the (s172 - name the driver) paperwork returned in time? Was it correctly filled in and signed?
Did you get proof of posting? Did you ever hear anything back?
Presumably this http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=122994&hl=? Hopefully a moderator will merge the threads.
Yes it's the same case
Then you obviously hit REPORT on this thread and ask to be merged
One case, one thread.
Thank you so much. I feel more at ease now.
Was given my trial date today as I didn't want to change my not guilty plea.
The chap from the police said they did send me a reminder in March (????) Which will go against me I suspect.
Hi there, I'm in court on Tuesday for this.
I was thinking that in the worst case scenario, it doesn't go in my favour. 6 points,a fine and court costs.
However I don't have 2 pennies to rub together, I have been served an eviction notice as I am behind in rent and I have just had a council tax liability order issued before Christmas.
Does anyone know what the court may issue or demand?
I did an affordability/expenses form when I had the 1st administrative hearing.
Many Thanks if anyone reads this old thread.
If found guilty of the S172 the fine will be 150% of your weekly take home (after tax and NI only), if that is less than £140 then £140 will be used (fine £210) plus a surcharge of 10% of the fine (minimum of £30) and prosecution costs following a trial of £620, so somewhere over £830.
The minimum assumed weekly income is actually £120pw, Rookie.
I think it unlikely that the prosecution will ask for £620 for what is essentially a “Section 9” trial (i.e. heard by way of statements only). The more likely figure is probably around £300. Of course the court always has the discretion to reduce the amount of costs awarded when considering the defendant’s means.
Aghhh ok, will they take weekly amounts or do I have to pay it there and then?
Also should I have written a statement?
You can ask for time to pay in instalments.
Thanks for the correction NJ.
Thank you everyone
Hi all, I had my court hearing today and I was found not guilty on both accounts.
Thanks again for your support and wise words
X
Excellent news
Well done
Did the magistrates make any comments ?
After the adjourned he said it's down to my story against the prosecution as there wasn't really evidence on either side and whether or not we believe you (dramatic pause) and we so believe you and find you not guilty.
I think I represented myself ok, mainly because of you guys, but also thank fully the prosecution was not prepared at all, he sort of bumbled about and he produced "evidence" of the reminder letter that I didn't ever receive. This was listed as evidence piece 3. I however only received evidence 1 & 2 when I received the SJP, when I questioned as to how he had extra evidence that I was unaware of he said oh may be I didn't get it then?!
Magistrate asked if I have problems with our post ever and I said yes I do, post for number 22 of another road and we often get our neighbours post, plus 2 eBay items that haven't arrived in last 6 months.
He also confirmed that I had no reason at all to protect the driver and I said absolutely not, and as bad as it may sound, I got some alight pleasure out of it!
I explained what part of the form I filled in and sent off.
That I only sent it by standard post as I didn't have any money at all for recorded delivery.
I usually take photos of any forms and letters that I send but this time I just didn't think, as I had other pressing matters financially and worry about housing.
He said at the end, just make sure you always keep up your habit of taking photos of everything should anything like this happen again
The prosecution have to prove their case beyond reasonable doubt and obviously failed to do so, a good result. It sounds as though you presented your case very well, pointing out salient points such as your lack of any motivation to not send the form, and the failure to send you evidence they intended to rely on. Perhaps a new career beckons in due course, when your youngest starts school? Well done!
I would love that!
As a result of an item of post going missing, motorists such as this OP are always prosecuted
A guilty verdict has expensive and long-lasting consequences and the outcome of the prosecution usually depends entirely on whether the court believes that the reply was sent
Some threads have suggested that the burden of proof on the prosecution is a lot lower than "beyond reasonable doubt"
It therefore surprises me that the forms don't include a warning in big red letters to take a copy and ask the Post Office for a certificate of sending instead of, as in this case, writing a furious reply and putting it in a letter box
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