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Welcome Overstayed at Morrisons Car Park, Fine from Euro Car Parks.
troglodyte
post Wed, 23 Sep 2020 - 23:37
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My daughter managed to acquire yet another fine - this time for exceeding the 2 hr time limit by around half an hr. I'm the registered owner and keeper of the car, but I won't be fighting this one for her. I've had enough, so she'll be taking responsibility this time, just for a change. All I need to know from the experts here is whether I'm under any legal obligation to disclose the name and address of the driver to those shysters - as requested by their notice to me? I'm guessing the answer to that must be Yes coz of a change in the law a few years ago, but thought I'd check anyway.

If you recall, this is the same young lady who landed me in hot water a few months ago with the 'double whammy', when she got two tickets from Greenwich Council for failure to display the parking permit. It had dropped from the windshield onto the floor unnoticed, possibly after she parked the car on her way into work. Thanks to your excellent advice, we successfully appealed the fine, but I was unable to find the relevant thread to report the update.

No doubt you'll be hearing from her in due course, and I'll help her as far as I can with document processing, etc., but that's about it. The rest is up to her, so I hope you'll be able to advise her whether she has any grounds for appeal, etc.

Scanned doc. to follow later, and thanks in advance for any advice you can offer her.
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post Wed, 23 Sep 2020 - 23:37
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troglodyte
post Thu, 24 Sep 2020 - 18:02
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@ ostell

QUOTE
So use the appeal in post #9


Sorry, I'm still unclear. Are you advising that despite my post at #16? Not sure if you've seen it yet.

This post has been edited by troglodyte: Thu, 24 Sep 2020 - 18:04
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ostell
post Thu, 24 Sep 2020 - 18:43
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So what has period of parking to do with the appeal I posted?

This post has been edited by ostell: Thu, 24 Sep 2020 - 18:44
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troglodyte
post Thu, 24 Sep 2020 - 19:35
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@ ostell - Gotcha. I saw this:

QUOTE
Read POFA 9 (2) (a), it requires period of parking to be stated


...and jumped to the wrong conclusion. I now see the 'appeal' is based mainly on POFA 9 (2) (e).

My bad. OK, so we're back on track again then. I can reply as per your 'template', and the young lady doesn't even need to lift a finger. Shame. I was hoping you might give her 'an education', so to speak, a baptism in the arcane world of parking fine appeals, etc.

But looks like it's on me again. OK, I'll give it a go and see what comes of it. I'll keep ya posted on any developments.

Thx again ostell. And all the others who chimed in. Appreciated.
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ostell
post Thu, 24 Sep 2020 - 20:14
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You could always name the driver and that will give her an incentive!! But then not so many ways to get out of it
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troglodyte
post Thu, 24 Sep 2020 - 20:41
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Nah, I'm good thx. I just got a little hacked off at always fighting her battles for her. Well past time she stood up on her own feet. OTOH, I wanna preserve as many of those escape clauses as possible - keep them in reserve, just in case they're needed. I'll make sure she's the registered owner/keeper of her next car, which I'll be buying - of course.

I hafta say though, I'm really surprised I'm not under a legal obligation to disclose driver details. I would have thunked that was a loophole they would have closed yonks ago.

OK, appeal formally lodged, and I await developments with interest.

Thx again, and I'm relieved that your template wasn't drafted in vain after all.
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ostell
post Thu, 24 Sep 2020 - 20:52
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Yep kids are fun. I had to get my daughter out of many scrapes. And she still comes back to the bank of dad.

There are new regulations in the pipeline, both here and Scotland and they might just close that loophole.
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troglodyte
post Fri, 25 Sep 2020 - 00:01
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Yeah, figures. Didn't think that loophole would remain unplugged for too long. If memory serves, their buddies in the Upper Chamber will be scratching a few backs to order.

As for the bank of M&D - tell me about it. Our only respite will come when we're gone and it's all theirs - at least what's left of it after the taxman has taken his cut.

This post has been edited by troglodyte: Fri, 25 Sep 2020 - 00:20
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Umkomaas
post Fri, 25 Sep 2020 - 11:37
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A complaint to Morrisons will almost certainly have had this cancelled by now. Potentially much more effective than splitting hairs over PoFA. ECP will reject the appeal, then you've got a shedload of work to develop a POPLA appeal, and as POPLA are far less predictable these days, even an appeal to them carries no guarantees.

Then it's 6 years of uncertainty.
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troglodyte
post Fri, 25 Sep 2020 - 12:29
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@ Umkomaas

Hmm ....... I take your point. Line of least resistance, etc. Is there any reason we can't do both in tandem? And what would be the grounds for the complaint that would persuade them to drop it? After all, the terms of use were breached. Simply asking them to call off their dog doesn't sound too promising as a means for achieving the desired result.
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troglodyte
post Fri, 25 Sep 2020 - 12:48
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Apologies. Just remembered you gave me a link to check out. OK, I think this is the point where I can pass it over to the sprog. About time she got her hands dirty too.
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Umkomaas
post Fri, 25 Sep 2020 - 12:51
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QUOTE (troglodyte @ Fri, 25 Sep 2020 - 13:29) *
@ Umkomaas

Hmm ....... I take your point. Line of least resistance, etc. Is there any reason we can't do both in tandem? And what would be the grounds for the complaint that would persuade them to drop it? After all, the terms of use were breached. Simply asking them to call off their dog doesn't sound too promising as a means for achieving the desired result.

You seem to be looking for a fight. You can't beat a PPC into submission, and do them damage in the process, there'll be at least three quarters of a million other motorists per year for ECP to move on to. Just complain to Morrisons as per my advice yesterday.

But if you want to expend potentially unnecessary effort, do both in tandem. However, be aware, that no matter what you put to ECP they are highly unlikely to consider it (probably won't even read it) and simply reject it. There is no income from cancelled parking charges. It's up to you. I can't give you better advice than that which I've already given.
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troglodyte
post Fri, 25 Sep 2020 - 14:27
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No, certainly not looking for a fight.

And yeah, I'm well aware my appeal will be rejected OOH. I only asked about doing both in tandem coz I already submitted an appeal as per advice from ostell.

Unless you're suggesting that I can now withdraw from the appeals process without prejudice to the outcome? I'm not deliberately looking for more work than is strictly necessary. Quite the opposite, as I made clear in my OP about my resentment at having to fight yet another battle for my daughter.

For now, I'll assume your link gives grounds, etc., for the complaint to Morrisons.

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Umkomaas
post Fri, 25 Sep 2020 - 15:16
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QUOTE (troglodyte @ Fri, 25 Sep 2020 - 15:27) *
Unless you're suggesting that I can now withdraw from the appeals process without prejudice to the outcome?

There is a foregone outcome in 99.99% of initial appeals. Not much to 'prejudice'!

QUOTE
For now, I'll assume your link gives grounds, etc., for the complaint to Morrisons.

I was assuming you would have already read it?

Only your daughter/you might know the 'grounds' based on the events of the day, but what I've provided are a list of the tactics that have worked in every Morrisons case I've read/advised on. They're as near to a silver bullet as you're ever likely to get.

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troglodyte
post Fri, 25 Sep 2020 - 15:16
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@ Umkomaas

OK, I've now read your link. So basically, it boils down to a threat of withdrawal of patronage. Seems a bit crude to me, but if it has any chance of success, I'll encourage her to give it a go. On the downside, I doubt she has kept any receipts. Hopefully, she can produce alternative evidence of purchases made on the day.

Thx for the suggestion and the link. I'll keep ya all posted.
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Umkomaas
post Fri, 25 Sep 2020 - 15:27
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QUOTE (troglodyte @ Fri, 25 Sep 2020 - 16:16) *
@ Umkomaas

OK, I've now read your link. So basically, it boils down to a threat of withdrawal of patronage. Seems a bit crude to me, but if it has any chance of success, I'll encourage her to give it a go. On the downside, I doubt she has kept any receipts. Hopefully, she can produce alternative evidence of purchases made on the day.

Thx for the suggestion and the link. I'll keep ya all posted.

Nowhere does my advice boil down to the threat of withdrawal of patronage. What it boils down to is using gathered evidence to persuade Ms to help a regular customer. Absolutely nothing crude in that, or my advice. How have you misconstrued that, effectively putting words in my mouth?

Just for the record, here is the advice I proffered in the linked thread:
QUOTE
If it is a Morrisons exclusive site, they are one of the best for getting PCNs cancelled - even for fly-parkers. If your daughter did use the shop on the day, go along armed with receipt(s), cc/bank statements and any previous ones showing regular patronage. If she (or a family member!) has a M's loyalty card ('More' card) take that along too. Only speak with the manager. I really don't think M's are prepared to let a third party threaten the risk of them losing good customers.

If the local manager won't play ball, write to the CEO (with all the evidence above).

david.potts-ceo@morrisonsplc.co.uk
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troglodyte
post Fri, 25 Sep 2020 - 16:03
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QUOTE
I really don't think M's are prepared to let a third party threaten the risk of them losing good customers.


C'mon now. Isn't that at least an implied threat? That's how I read it, anyway. There was no intent to 'put words in your mouth' or misrepresent your advice. Customer leverage (eg shopping history, loyalty card, family support, etc) is practically the backbone of your advice. At least, that's how it appeared to me.

But I don't wanna get into a spat with you over semantics. Either way, I'm grateful for the advice, and the violin case will stay at home regardless. And so will Luigi and Roberto.
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Umkomaas
post Fri, 25 Sep 2020 - 16:11
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QUOTE (troglodyte @ Fri, 25 Sep 2020 - 17:03) *
QUOTE
I really don't think M's are prepared to let a third party threaten the risk of them losing good customers.


C'mon now. Isn't that at least an implied threat? That's how I read it, anyway. There was no intent to 'put words in your mouth' or misrepresent your advice. Customer leverage (eg shopping history, loyalty card, family support, etc) is practically the backbone of your advice. At least, that's how it appeared to me.

But I don't wanna get into a spat with you over semantics. Either way, I'm grateful for the advice, and the violin case will stay at home regardless. And so will Luigi and Roberto.

But the threat isn't coming from you/daughter. It comes from the PPC.

Here's a MSE thread from just today showing how easy it is to get Ms on your side:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discus...-process#latest

And I didn't even get the chance to advise on that one! laugh.gif
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Rusty Horn
post Tue, 29 Sep 2020 - 09:47
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I didn't think Morrison'd had parking limits. I haven't seen one yet, but maybe I should check the signage. I often spend 5 or 6 hours in the cafe at one of them (buying food and coffee at intervals of course), and I don't do it at times of high activity. I even parked my camper van for a week in one car park, and of course I did all my shopping in the supermarket. I wanted to do some work on the van, and the Amazon locker was a god send for parts. Ir was a large car park, and was never completely full, so I suspect it was mutually convenient, and that was why I didn't get chucked out.

2 hours isn't enough time if you are doing some shopping, and using the WiFi in the cafe.
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Umkomaas
post Wed, 30 Sep 2020 - 10:29
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QUOTE
I didn't think Morrison'd had parking limits.

In most locations they certainly do. PCNs issued at Morrisons make up a fair proportion of cases dealt with here and on MSE. That's how we know our advice on getting them cancelled is solid.

QUOTE
I often spend 5 or 6 hours in the cafe at one of them (buying food and coffee at intervals of course), and I don't do it at times of high activity. I even parked my camper van for a week in one car park, and of course I did all my shopping in the supermarket. I wanted to do some work on the van, and the Amazon locker was a god send for parts.

You should take up Russian Roulette, it's safer!
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