PCN from VCS Calder Park, Wakefield, Advice please! |
PCN from VCS Calder Park, Wakefield, Advice please! |
Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 21:02
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 18 Feb 2018 Member No.: 96,622 |
Hi,
I've received a 'PCN' from Vehicle Control Systems for stopping (not parking) on 'their' road. Here are the scans I've had a look around the forums already for advice given to other people and have come up with the following draft letter (mainly borrowed from other suggested letters) which I propose to send as a reply. Could some of you good folk take a look and advise if I should add, omit or change anything. If you need more info about the circumstances, please let me know. ---- Dear VCS, Parking Charge Notice Ref [VCxxxxxxxx]: Vehicle Registration [xxxx xxx] In my capacity as the hirer (aka keeper for the day in question) of the above-detailed vehicle, I write to formally dispute the validity of the above-detailed Parking Charge Notice (“PCN”). Crucially, your PCN did not properly comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“POFA”) and you have therefore forfeited your right to keeper liability. Should you be of any doubt about this, I suggest that you carefully study Schedule 4 of POFA to understand the reasons for your non-compliance. You state, in your PCN, that the registered keeper named me as the driver. This is not true, the keeper has absolutely no knowledge of the driver at the time. If you insist that this true, please provide evidence. If you wish to continue this dispute, lying at this stage will not show you in a good light. Furthermore, you've sent a Parking Charge Notice, when the alleged contravention is for 'Stopping'. 'Parking' and 'stopping' are not the same. Clearly, even you don't know what the alleged contract is supposed to bind the parties to, and you wrote it! Having personally reviewed the signage, it is clear that a driver travelling at a reasonable speed, within the speed limit, could not possibly read the wording on your signs, must less consider them, and therefore could in no circumstances be deemed to have entered a contract. Since no valid contract exists, and you cannot identify of the driver, please confirm that this charge has been cancelled. Alternatively, should you believe that you still have a valid claim and wish to escalate this dispute, I am prepared to refer this matter to Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) on the condition that this is undertaken by an ADR entity which meets all regulatory requirements. I do not believe that the Independent Parking Committee’s “Independent Appeals Service” currently meets these requirements and so I propose that should ADR be necessary, this is undertaken by the Consumer Ombudsman whose service does comply with the regulations and whose details are available on its website http://www.consumer-ombudsman.org/ Thank you for your cooperation and I look forward to receiving your confirmation that this charge has been cancelled. ------ |
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Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 21:02
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Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 21:28
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
It looks as though the original PCN was beyond the 14 days required to hold the registered keeper (POFA (9) (4)) and if you did not receive copies of the hire agreement and the original PCN (POFA 14 (2) (a)) then they have failed on that point also.
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Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 17:39
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 18 Feb 2018 Member No.: 96,622 |
It looks as though the original PCN was beyond the 14 days required to hold the registered keeper (POFA (9) (4)) and if you did not receive copies of the hire agreement and the original PCN (POFA 14 (2) (a)) then they have failed on that point also. I'm not entirely sure it was. Let me clarify the arrangement. I have the car on a 2 year lease from a company, I think they lease it from another company who will be the registered keeper. So they may have contacted them within the time limt. Although I didn't get a copy of the original PCN, what I posted is all I received. I think they've already screwed themsleves on the POFA front anyway. |
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Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 17:46
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
If this was a rental/lease car then I think they may still have been outside the time. I'll let you work out the timings.
You are correct in that the lese compnay cannot possibly have said who was driving, only who the keeper/ hirer was. I presume that the PCN is addressed to you and not the lease company. Have you looked at POFA 14 (2) (a) and did you get the documents described there? Most times they forget to send them and therefore a POFA fail. |
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Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 18:07
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,126 Joined: 31 Jan 2018 Member No.: 96,238 |
Nice little honeytrap
An entrance that doesn't go anywhere so drivers stop there briefly to avoid obstructing the road |
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Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 01:49
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 564 Joined: 15 Nov 2017 Member No.: 95,103 |
Nice little honeytrap An entrance that doesn't go anywhere so drivers stop there briefly to avoid obstructing the road They are all around that estate those little dead ends - it's not been fully built yet. The VCS signs went up about a year back and since then I've just been avoiding all the buisness and making sure that they know why. The signs are very similar to the JLA ones and are not lit. |
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Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 20:20
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 18 Feb 2018 Member No.: 96,622 |
If this was a rental/lease car then I think they may still have been outside the time. I'll let you work out the timings. You are correct in that the lese compnay cannot possibly have said who was driving, only who the keeper/ hirer was. I presume that the PCN is addressed to you and not the lease company. Have you looked at POFA 14 (2) (a) and did you get the documents described there? Most times they forget to send them and therefore a POFA fail. Thanks for drawing my attention to POFA 14 (2) (a). No, the didn't provide me with the documents mentioned there (or at least pointed to there and mentions in POFA 13 (2) ) I'll add that to my letter and repost it here. And, yes, the PCN was addressed to me personally. Nice little honeytrap An entrance that doesn't go anywhere so drivers stop there briefly to avoid obstructing the road IIRC the signs state "No stopping on the road", so I did think of arguing that they can't apply to a different road, or indeed, unbuilt road, as they say "THE road" not "THESE roads" This post has been edited by notsorry: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 21:40 |
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Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 20:36
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 18 Feb 2018 Member No.: 96,622 |
Here's the new version of my letter with the additional paragraph highlighted
-------------- Dear VCS, Parking Charge Notice Ref [VCxxxxxxxx]: Vehicle Registration [xxxx xxx] In my capacity as the hirer (aka keeper for the day in question) of the above-detailed vehicle, I write to formally dispute the validity of the above-detailed Parking Charge Notice (“PCN”). Crucially, your PCN did not properly comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“POFA”) and you have therefore forfeited your right to keeper liability. Should you be of any doubt about this, I suggest that you carefully study Schedule 4 of POFA to understand the reasons for your non-compliance. Additionally, nor did your PCN properly comply with the requirements of Schedule 14 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, in particular paragraph (2)(a). Please study this carefully to understand the reasons for your non-compliance. You state, in your PCN, that the registered keeper named me as the driver. This is not true, the keeper has absolutely no knowledge of the driver at the time. If you insist that this true, please provide evidence. If you wish to continue this dispute, lying at this stage will not show you in a good light. Furthermore, you've sent a Parking Charge Notice, when the alleged contravention is for 'Stopping'. 'Parking' and 'stopping' are not the same. Clearly, even you don't know what the alleged contract is supposed to bind the parties to, and you wrote it! Having personally reviewed the signage, it is clear that a driver travelling at a reasonable speed, within the speed limit, could not possibly read the wording on your signs, must less consider them, and therefore could in no circumstances be deemed to have entered a contract. Since no valid contract exists, and you cannot identify of the driver, please confirm that this charge has been cancelled. Alternatively, should you believe that you still have a valid claim and wish to escalate this dispute, I am prepared to refer this matter to Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) on the condition that this is undertaken by an ADR entity which meets all regulatory requirements. I do not believe that the Independent Parking Committee’s “Independent Appeals Service” currently meets these requirements and so I propose that should ADR be necessary, this is undertaken by the Consumer Ombudsman whose service does comply with the regulations and whose details are available on its website http://www.consumer-ombudsman.org/ Thank you for your cooperation and I look forward to receiving your confirmation that this charge has been cancelled. -------------- |
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Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 22:14
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
Tell them why they fail, ie out of time
It's schedule 4 of POFA, paragraph 14 I believe you are trying to say. |
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Sun, 25 Feb 2018 - 13:41
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 18 Feb 2018 Member No.: 96,622 |
Tell them why they fail, ie out of time It's schedule 4 of POFA, paragraph 14 I believe you are trying to say. Thanks for that, here's the amended letter with the changed parts highlighted: ------- Dear VCS, Parking Charge Notice Ref [VCxxxxxxxx]: Vehicle Registration [xxxx xxx] In my capacity as the hirer (aka keeper for the day in question) of the above-detailed vehicle, I write to formally dispute the validity of the above-detailed Parking Charge Notice (“PCN”). Crucially, your PCN did not properly comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“POFA”) and you have therefore forfeited your right to keeper liability as your notice was served out of time as provided for in Schedule 4 of POFA. Should you be of any doubt about this, I suggest that you carefully study Schedule 4 of POFA to understand the reasons for your non-compliance. Additionally, nor did your PCN properly comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, in particular paragraph 14 (2)(a). Please study this carefully to understand the reasons for your non-compliance. You state, in your PCN, that the registered keeper named me as the driver. This is not true, the keeper has absolutely no knowledge of the driver at the time. If you insist that this true, please provide evidence. If you wish to continue this dispute, lying at this stage will not show you in a good light. Furthermore, you've sent a Parking Charge Notice, when the alleged contravention is for 'Stopping'. 'Parking' and 'stopping' are not the same. Clearly, even you don't know what the alleged contract is supposed to bind the parties to, and you wrote it! Having personally reviewed the signage, it is clear that a driver travelling at a reasonable speed, within the speed limit, could not possibly read the wording on your signs, must less consider them, and therefore could in no circumstances be deemed to have entered a contract. Since no valid contract exists, and you cannot identify of the driver, please confirm that this charge has been cancelled. Alternatively, should you believe that you still have a valid claim and wish to escalate this dispute, I am prepared to refer this matter to Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR) on the condition that this is undertaken by an ADR entity which meets all regulatory requirements. I do not believe that the Independent Parking Committee’s “Independent Appeals Service” currently meets these requirements and so I propose that should ADR be necessary, this is undertaken by the Consumer Ombudsman whose service does comply with the regulations and whose details are available on its website http://www.consumer-ombudsman.org/ Thank you for your cooperation and I look forward to receiving your confirmation that this charge has been cancelled. ------- |
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Thu, 8 Mar 2018 - 21:14
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 18 Feb 2018 Member No.: 96,622 |
I had a reply from VCS which you can see below:
My first thoughts are to keep my reply short and sweet, something along the lines of... Dear blah blah, I require all communication to be conducted in writing via the postal service. For all other queries please refer to my previous letter dated ... I look forward to receiving your confirmation that your pursuit of this alleged charge has been cancelled. Yours, blah I'd appreciate any advice or input before I finalise it and write to them. I've just noticed that they've changed the issue date between the original PCN and their reply. I'm thinking I need to point this out in my reply to them and ask them why. |
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Thu, 8 Mar 2018 - 22:28
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
Tell then that you confirm that you have followed option one of their choices they gave and have handed the details to the driver, together with instrucions. You are not representing the driver and therefore option 2 is not applicable. You decline option 3.
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Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 10:14
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
You understand that, as you have followed their instructions, any further contact will only be to confirm the ticket has been cancelled and you will not be harassed further.
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Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 17:42
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 18 Feb 2018 Member No.: 96,622 |
Thanks, to both of you, that's perfect. I'll draft up a leetter and post it here tomorrow.
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Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 15:15
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 18 Feb 2018 Member No.: 96,622 |
How's this look?
---------- Dear VCS, Parking Charge Notice Ref [VCxxxxxxxx]: Vehicle Registration [xxxx xxx] I refer to the correspondence from you dated 06th March 2018 concerning the above numbered invoice. Firstly, all communication must be conducted in writing via the postal service. Secondly, I have followed the instructions as detailed in your correspondence. To confirm, I have: 1. Notified the driver as you request in instruction 1, and passed on your instructions. 2. I am not representing the driver, therefore instruction 2 does not apply. 3. I am not taking up instruction 3. As I have followed your instructions then any further correspondence from you will be to confirm the PCN has been cancelled and I will no longer be contacted or harrassed over this matter. Yours faithfully, ---------- |
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Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 19:41
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 18 Feb 2018 Member No.: 96,622 |
Here's VCS's reply
My first thoughts are to point out that: 1. I didn't appeal, so their rejection is rejected 2. I neither confirmed or denied I was the driver, they should stop stating that I, or anybody else, did unless they have evidence 3. They haven't met the POFA requirements, therefore there is no keeper liability (pointing to letter 1) 4. IAS do not meet ADR requirements (pointing to letter 1), I will only use an appeals service that does 5. I followed their instructions in the preceding letter, yet they continue to harrass me, why? Can I make it so if they do reply with something other than an LBA or court papers I can charge them? Saying 'By replying to this you agree to pay me £250', playing them at their own silly game. Thoughts and ideas, as ever, appreciated. |
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Thu, 22 Mar 2018 - 20:16
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
Just ignore from now on, forget about appealing to the IAS, you will only lose. Wait for the letter before action or an actual court claim.
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Mon, 26 Mar 2018 - 19:44
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 18 Feb 2018 Member No.: 96,622 |
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Sun, 22 Apr 2018 - 14:41
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 30 Joined: 18 Feb 2018 Member No.: 96,622 |
Here's the latest from VCS, do I reply or ignore?
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Sun, 22 Apr 2018 - 15:24
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,126 Joined: 31 Jan 2018 Member No.: 96,238 |
Dear Sir
Ref *** I have received your Notice of Intended Court Proceedings dated *** My position is unchanged that I was not the driver, have not been served with a valid Notice to Keeper and owe no payment to your company I will provide a more detailed reply if an when I received a properly formatted Letter Before Action in accordance with the Pre-action Conduct for Debt Claims Yours Faithfully This post has been edited by Redivi: Sun, 22 Apr 2018 - 15:25 |
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