Stopping in the controlled area of a Zebra crossing, Where is the legislation that makes this an offence |
Stopping in the controlled area of a Zebra crossing, Where is the legislation that makes this an offence |
Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 12:02
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38 Joined: 1 Jun 2014 Member No.: 71,021 |
Hi
I have a situation where a driver of a private hire vehicle stopped briefly on the zigzag lines of a Zebra crossing to drop off a passenger. This was witnessed by a police officer who issued a fixed penalty notice. Now, it used to be the case that this was an offence contrary to Regulation 20(2) of Part 1 of The Zebra, Pelican and Puffin Pedestrian Crossing Regulations 1997. However, this Part of the regulations was revoked under Regulation 13 of Part 1 of the The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016. This came into force on the 22nd April 2016. The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 were designed to consolidate a lot of the separate regulations concerning road traffic signage, hence the revocation of the 1997 regulations. However, I cannot find anywhere in these regulations the offence of stopping in the controlled are of a Zebra crossing (the "controlled area" is the zigzag lines either side of the crossings adjacent to the pavement). It seems as though there is no longer an offence of stopping in the controlled area of a Zebra crossing. I'm sure I must have missed it and would appreciate any help in finding it. The importunate of this is that the driver of the private hire vehicle has been charged with the offence under Regulation 20(2) of the 1997 Regulations which according to the 2016 Regulations is no longer in force. The 1997 regulations had some useful exemptions for stopping within the controlled area, for example due to circumstances beyond the driver's control. I do not know if the new offence (wherever it is now consolidated) has the same exemptions. The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/contents/made The Zebra, Pelican and Puffin Pedestrian Crossings Regulations and General Directions 1997: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1997/2400/contents/made |
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Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 12:02
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Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 13:04
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,126 Joined: 31 Jan 2018 Member No.: 96,238 |
Did the car stop to allow the passenger out or did he jump out while the car was stopped in traffic and throw a payment at the driver ?
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Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 13:24
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 41,510 Joined: 25 Aug 2011 From: Planet Earth Member No.: 49,223 |
The importunate of this is that the driver of the private hire vehicle has been charged with the offence under Regulation 20(2) of the 1997 Regulations... TSGRD 2016 maintains parts of revoked 1997 Act (See Reg 14). Is the question whether referring to 20(2) makes any discernible difference? -------------------- RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it. |
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Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 13:27
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Schedule 14.
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 13:46
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,306 Joined: 4 Mar 2017 Member No.: 90,659 |
As far as I am aware TSRGD 2016 removed the exemption for private hire vehicles to stop after the crossing on zig zags.
If the PH driver stopped after the crossing then a contrite letter to the police may see the case dropped what with it being a recent change and hardly well publicised. If the PH driver was stopped prior to the crossing then they wouldn't be exempted by the 1997 regs anyway so fixed penalty is probably a good offer. |
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Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 14:25
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38 Joined: 1 Jun 2014 Member No.: 71,021 |
Thanks for the replies.
Regulation 14(5) of The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 states: "(5) The Zebra, Pelican and Puffin Pedestrian Crossings Regulations 1997(3) (“the 1997 Regulations”) are to be treated as remaining in force in relation to Pelican Crossings (within the meaning of those Regulations) ..." Now this clearly specifies in relation "Pelican Crossing" and does not mention "Zebra Controlled Areas" (or indeed "Zebra Crossings", or "Pelican Controlled Areas"). All these have a distinct interpretation under The Zebra, Pelican and Puffin Pedestrian Crossings Regulations and General Directions 1997: “Pelican crossing” means a crossing— (a)at which there are traffic signs of the size, colour and type prescribed by regulation 5(2)(a) and Schedule 2; (b)the limits of which are indicated in accordance with regulation 5(2)(b) and Schedule 4;" “Pelican controlled area” means an area of carriageway in the vicinity of a Pelican crossing the limits of which are indicated in accordance with regulation 6(2) and Schedule 4;" “Zebra controlled area” means an area of carriageway in the vicinity of a Zebra crossing the limits of which are indicated in accordance with regulation 6(1) and Part II of Schedule 1" “Zebra crossing” means a crossing— (a)at which there are traffic signs of the size, colour and type prescribed by regulation 5(1)(a) and Part I of Schedule 1; and (b)the limits of which are indicated in accordance with regulation 5(1)(b) and Part II of Schedule 1. Now in the case I am referring to it was a Zebra Controlled Area, not a Pelican Crossing and I can't find any reference to either Zebra Crossings or Zebra Controlled Areas within the 2016 Regulations. Is there somewhere else the new regulations continue to treat Zebra Controlled Areas under the 1997 regulations as remaining in force? Thanks again for the replies so far. |
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Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 14:40
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38 Joined: 1 Jun 2014 Member No.: 71,021 |
As far as I am aware TSRGD 2016 removed the exemption for private hire vehicles to stop after the crossing on zig zags. If the PH driver stopped after the crossing then a contrite letter to the police may see the case dropped what with it being a recent change and hardly well publicised. If the PH driver was stopped prior to the crossing then they wouldn't be exempted by the 1997 regs anyway so fixed penalty is probably a good offer. Regulation 22 of the 1997 regulations mentions an exception for "public service" vehicles. Would that include a private hire vehicle? If the 1997 regulations in relation to Zebra Controlled Areas do remain in force under the 2016 regulations then the defence which will be relied on is "avoiding injury or damage to persons" under Regulation 21(b) of the 1997 regulations. I believe that has not been excluded from the 2016 saving provisions. |
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Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 14:48
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,306 Joined: 4 Mar 2017 Member No.: 90,659 |
Dropping passengers will not covered by avoiding injury, you can't just think of any fanciful way someone may be indirectly injured and then stop your car where you want. You have to stop because not stopping is very likely to directly injure someone. This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 17:32 |
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Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 14:54
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
schedule 14 part 5 4(f)
(f) the vehicle is a public service vehicle being used— (i) in the provision of a local service; or (ii) to carry passengers for hire or reward at separate fares, where the vehicle is waiting in the controlled area in order to take up or set down passengers having proceeded past the crossing or the light signals to which the controlled area relates; or if not stopped beyond the crossing remember its pay or go to mags -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 16:41
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38 Joined: 1 Jun 2014 Member No.: 71,021 |
schedule 14 part 5 4(f) (f) the vehicle is a public service vehicle being used— (i) in the provision of a local service; or (ii) to carry passengers for hire or reward at separate fares, where the vehicle is waiting in the controlled area in order to take up or set down passengers having proceeded past the crossing or the light signals to which the controlled area relates; or if not stopped beyond the crossing remember its pay or go to mags Thank you very much Pastmybest...! That's taken me to a very helpful part of the 2016 regulations. I had thought that this exception had not been included in the 2016 regulations. |
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Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 20:38
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
........Thank you very much Pastmybest...! That's taken me to a very helpful part of the 2016 regulations. I had thought that this exception had not been included in the 2016 regulations. But it is an exception for Public Service Vehicles, not hire cars or taxis. PSVs are normally passenger carrying vehicles with 9 seats or more. |
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Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 20:39
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
........Thank you very much Pastmybest...! That's taken me to a very helpful part of the 2016 regulations. I had thought that this exception had not been included in the 2016 regulations. But it is an exception for Public Service Vehicles, not hire cars or taxis. PSVs are normally passenger carrying vehicles with 9 seats or more. That’s what I thought. -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 18:54
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 324 Joined: 13 Nov 2013 From: UK Member No.: 66,671 |
The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 were designed to consolidate a lot of the separate regulations concerning road traffic signage, hence the revocation of the 1997 regulations. However, I cannot find anywhere in these regulations the offence of stopping in the controlled are of a Zebra crossing (the "controlled area" is the zigzag lines either side of the crossings adjacent to the pavement). It seems as though there is no longer an offence of stopping in the controlled area of a Zebra crossing. I'm sure I must have missed it and would appreciate any help in finding it. Having looked through TSRGD 2016 I think it is these (although it all seems unnecessarily complicated!): Schedule 1 defines a Section 25 Crossing as a Puffin or Zebra crossing. Schedule 14 - part 1 (6) Part 5 makes provision about the precedence of vehicles and pedestrians respectively, and generally with respect to the movement of traffic (including pedestrians), at and in the vicinity of section 25 crossings. Significance of zig-zag lines at Zebra crossings (20) The zig-zag lines provided for at item 52 of the Part 2 sign table convey to vehicular traffic, for the purpose of complying with paragraphs 3 and 6 of Part 5 (movement of traffic at section 25 crossings), the limits of a Zebra controlled area. Schedule 14 - Part 5 Movement at Section 25 Crossings 1. The driver of a vehicle must not cause the vehicle or any part of it to stop within the limits of a section 25 crossing unless prevented from proceeding by circumstances beyond the driver’s control or it is necessary to stop to avoid injury or damage to persons or property. There is then a large list of exemptions inlcuding PSV's but not Taxi / private hire as far as I can see. -------------------- "Truth is ever to be found in the simplicity, and not in the multiplicity and confusion of things" - Isaac Newton
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Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 21:16
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,963 Joined: 19 Dec 2006 From: Near Calais Member No.: 9,683 |
PSV as defined by the Public Passenger Vehicle Regulations 1982 (I think). A vehicle with fewer than 8 passenger seats can also be a PSV when used on a registered local bus service which <could> be a taxi or private hire vehicle.
Stopping on zigzags used to attract 3 points as well as fixed penalty. |
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Sat, 24 Feb 2018 - 07:57
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
PSV as defined by the Public Passenger Vehicle Regulations 1982 (I think). A vehicle with fewer than 8 passenger seats can also be a PSV when used on a registered local bus service which <could> be a taxi or private hire vehicle. Stopping on zigzags used to attract 3 points as well as fixed penalty. I thought it still was worth 3 points plus fine |
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Sat, 24 Feb 2018 - 11:12
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,306 Joined: 4 Mar 2017 Member No.: 90,659 |
3 points + fine from the police.
Only a fine if it's a traffic warden. |
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Sat, 24 Feb 2018 - 13:17
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 56,198 Joined: 9 Sep 2003 From: Warwickshire Member No.: 317 |
3 points + fine from the police. Only a fine if it's a traffic warden. Sort of.....I thought a traffic warden issued a fixed penalty notice which would carry 3 points, but the much more likely CEO (euphemistically still called a traffic warden) penalty charge notice which is no points. Neither strictly of course issues a fine. This post has been edited by The Rookie: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 - 13:18 -------------------- There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!
S172's Rookies 1-0 Kent Council PCN's Rookies 1-0 Warwick Rookies 1-0 Birmingham PPC PCN's Rookies 10-0 PPC's |
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Sat, 24 Feb 2018 - 16:06
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,397 Joined: 12 Jun 2008 From: West Sussex Member No.: 20,304 |
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Sat, 24 Feb 2018 - 16:36
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,306 Joined: 4 Mar 2017 Member No.: 90,659 |
Really? I must have missed the part where traffic wardens (not many of those left anyway) were given court status and able to levy fines. "Civil Enforcement Officers" if you want can enforce zig zags, I am sure it is not beyond your imagination to equate fine and PCN.. Traffic Management Act 2004. Try it if you want. This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 - 16:37 |
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Sat, 24 Feb 2018 - 17:19
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
3 points + fine from the police. Only a fine if it's a traffic warden. Sort of.....I thought a traffic warden issued a fixed penalty notice which would carry 3 points, but the much more likely CEO (euphemistically still called a traffic warden) penalty charge notice which is no points. Neither strictly of course issues a fine. 3 points + fine from the police. Only a fine if it's a traffic warden. Really? I must have missed the part where traffic wardens (not many of those left anyway) were given court status and able to levy fines. Unnecessary pedantry on both your parts. Really? I must have missed the part where traffic wardens (not many of those left anyway) were given court status and able to levy fines. "Civil Enforcement Officers" if you want can enforce zig zags, I am sure it is not beyond your imagination to equate fine and PCN.. Traffic Management Act 2004. Try it if you want. Exactly. -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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