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Train station parking fine(ANPR) for late payment even though paid for all day
varghesejim
post Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 13:15
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Hello,

I got two parking fines from stoke mandeville station car park(APCOA).

Usually driver pay parking charge using the an app (Ringgo)

Details:
1)


Date of contravention:26/10/18
Date of issue of notice:05/11/18
Driver entered the station at 6:55am. Driver paid £7.70 using Ringgo at 7.44am. Note that 7.70 is all day parking charge and even if driver paid right away driver would have paid the same amount
2)

Date of contravention:27/10/18
Date of issue of notice:08/11/18
Entered the station at 11:01am. Driver paid at 4.70 using Ringgo at 11.12am(Just 11 minutes later!). Note that 4.70 is all day parking charge after 9am(off peak) and even if driver paid right away driver would have paid the same amount.


back page of both the letters(same) for reference below



Do I have any grounds for appeal?

Sorry I missed to hide the personal details from the pics originally which is corrected now.

This post has been edited by varghesejim: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 - 09:04
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post Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 13:15
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Jlc
post Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 13:25
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QUOTE (varghesejim @ Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 13:15) *
Do I have any grounds for appeal?

The PCN's say no valid payment - so why were they issued? Is there a pay within X minutes requirement?

This post has been edited by Jlc: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 13:25


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Spudandros
post Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 13:28
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QUOTE (varghesejim @ Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 14:15) *
Hello,

I got two parking fines from stoke mandeville station car park(APCOA).

Usually I pay parking charge using the an app (Ringgo)

Details:
1)

Date of contravention:26/10/18
Date of issue of notice:05/11/18
I entered the station at 6:55am. I paid £7.70 using Ringgo at 7.44am. Note that 7.70 is all day parking charge and even if I paid right away I would have paid the same amount
2)

Date of contravention:27/10/18
Date of issue of notice:08/11/18
Entered the station at 11:01am. I paid at 4.70 using Ringgo at 11.12am(Just 11 minutes later!). Note that 4.70 is all day parking charge after 9am(off peak) and even if I paid right away I would have paid the same amount.


back page of both the letters(same) for reference below



Do I have any grounds for appeal?

Sorry I missed to hide the personal details from the pics originally which is corrected now.


You do. The Notice to Keeper makes no attempt to meet the requirements of Sch4 of Protection of Freedoms Act, so only the driver - who they don't know - is liable for this charge and the keeper has no liability at all. It's also likely that bylaws are in place, meaning its not relevant land for the purpose of keeper liability and it was sent too late - 8th Nov was a Thursday so not deemed served until 2nd working day - 12th Nov. Issue date is 27th Oct. Needs to be served within 14 days. All points should see it overturned comfortably at the POPLA appeal service, but wait and see what others say. POPLA appeals have to be carefully drafted not to give away the id of the driver.

This post has been edited by Spudandros: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 13:32
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SchoolRunMum
post Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 14:47
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Easy peasy one. NTKs do not have to be served within 14 days BTW, but if a firm chooses not to use the words & timeline from the POFA, they can't hold a keeper liable.

Thus, no registered keeper appellant can lose an APCOA case. Just follow the template appeals in this thread on MSE:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...d.php?t=4816822

The keeper then wins at POPLA with a longer appeal (copy any APCOA POPLA appeal from this year and you'd win hands down, as long as it does NOT talk about who was driving.
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DancingDad
post Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 15:26
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Ignoring the keeper/driver/POFA discussion (which is valid BTW) the PCNs were issued when the vehicle left.
By which time there had been valid and sufficient payment made via Ringo?
So why were they issued at all?
Have you access to the receipts and do all tie up, location, reg number et al ??
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ostell
post Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 18:53
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All this talk about the keeper has no liability is completely pointless when the identity of the driver can be inferred from the posts so please edit the posts so the identity of the driver cannot be inferred, including the quoted texts by spudandros

As this appears to be railway land and byelaws then there can be no keeper liability because of not relevant land

This post has been edited by ostell: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 18:55
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varghesejim
post Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 19:17
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 16:26) *
Ignoring the keeper/driver/POFA discussion (which is valid BTW) the PCNs were issued when the vehicle left.
By which time there had been valid and sufficient payment made via Ringo?
So why were they issued at all?
Have you access to the receipts and do all tie up, location, reg number et al ??


I was late to make the payment by 50 mins in the first case and 11 mins in the second case. So I presume there is some rule that the payment has to be done within 10 minutes.

Note that even though the payment was done late, whole amount is paid for a day, so the parking company did not loose any money.

I do have online receipts from Ringgo

QUOTE (ostell @ Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 19:53) *
All this talk about the keeper has no liability is completely pointless when the identity of the driver can be inferred from the posts so please edit the posts so the identity of the driver cannot be inferred, including the quoted texts by spudandros


How is it possible to infer the driver? Do they refer pepipoo for finding the drivers?


QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 15:47) *
Easy peasy one. NTKs do not have to be served within 14 days BTW, but if a firm chooses not to use the words & timeline from the POFA, they can't hold a keeper liable.

Thus, no registered keeper appellant can lose an APCOA case. Just follow the template appeals in this thread on MSE:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...d.php?t=4816822

The keeper then wins at POPLA with a longer appeal (copy any APCOA POPLA appeal from this year and you'd win hands down, as long as it does NOT talk about who was driving.



So I should not mention the fact that the parking company did not loose any money because of my late payment? I understand if I say that that will identify me as a driver.

This post has been edited by varghesejim: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 19:18
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SchoolRunMum
post Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 19:28
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Obviously not. You just use the MSE template and you then win.
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ostell
post Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 19:38
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It is not unknown for printouts off the forum to appear in court. There is probably enough details in the first post to identify the case. This is a public forum, anyone can access

The keeper can say that they did not lose money as the driver paid for the day.

Is this actually byelaw land, do railway byelaws apply? If it is byelaw land then absolutely no keeper liability and if they know the identity of the driver then they proceed against the driver.

This post has been edited by ostell: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 19:40
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SchoolRunMum
post Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 20:12
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Luckily, it's only APCOA and that won't happen - it will be won before Christmas by appealing two stages and not saying who was driving.

No story of what happened, no ''my'', ''me''' or ''I'' in the appeal except as per the template wording.

This post has been edited by SchoolRunMum: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 22:29
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varghesejim
post Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 22:25
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ok, I understand I need to use the blue template from MSE

QUOTE
Re PCN number:

I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement. There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn.

Since your PCN is a vague template, I require all photos taken, a clear image of the signage and an explanation of the allegation (e.g. if you have identified a wrong VRN input at a machine, say so, and explain why your Data Protection Officer has not simply rectified it, rather than trying to punish a driver for a matter where there is nothing to deter).

I will be making a formal complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner and to my MP, appraising all parties of the debate where Parliament agreed: ''we need to crack down on these rogue companies. They are an absolute disgrace to this country. Ordinary motorists...should not have to put up with this''. Firms of your ilk were unanimously condemned as operating an 'outrageous scam' (Hansard 2.2.18). The BPA & IPC were heavily criticised; hardly surprising for an industry where so-called AOS members admit to letting victims 'futilely go through the motions' of appeal and that 'we make it up most of the time' (BBC Watchdog).

Formal note:
Should you later pursue this charge by way of litigation, note that service of any legal documents by email is expressly disallowed and you are not entitled to assume that the data in this dispute/appeal remains the current address for service.
Yours faithfully,


However I cannot understand this part in the template

QUOTE
e.g. if you have identified a wrong VRN input at a machine, say so, and explain why your Data Protection Officer has not simply rectified it, rather than trying to punish a driver for a matter where there is nothing to deter




The ticket issued was ANPR driven. What is the template saying about wrong VRN and all? Is it applicable in my scenario?
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SchoolRunMum
post Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 22:30
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No, you can remove that bit. I am Coupon-mad on MSE and I wrote that bit at a point recently when the forum was seeing a ludicrous number of 'wrong VRN' cases.

You could replace it with:

and how you contend you can hold a registered keeper liable, given the fact APCOA choose not to use the wording in Schedule 4 of the POFA 2012.

This post has been edited by SchoolRunMum: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 - 22:31
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varghesejim
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 19:11
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I have appealed through APCOA online as advised.

Today I got another one for 29 october. Driver entered car park at 7.10am, paid full day amount of 7.70 through ringgo at 8.09am.

This makes total number of tickets 3. There could be more tickets I guess.

I think I will appeal for the latest ticket in the same format as before

Question: the fact remains that for all of these days APCOA received the full amount, which is not mentioned in the appeal. Will I be able to point that at a later stage if it goes to POPLA/Tribunal?

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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 20:38
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Yes, of course, however popla won't care.
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SchoolRunMum
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 20:45
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POPLA is not a Tribunal.

It's been said before that the Assessors comprise some non-legally-trained nail technicians and amateur sex novel writers, etc.

AT POPLA STAGE, DO NOT ADD STUFF ABOUT PAYMENT BEING MADE UNLESS YOU TAKE ON BOARD THE REASON WHY EVERYONE WINS AT POPLA V APCOA, AND THAT IS BECAUSE WE DO NOT SAY OR IMPLY IN ADDED WORDS, WHO WAS DRIVING. SO NOTHING ABOUT 'I MADE PAYMENT' OR 'I DID THIS/THAT' IN ANY POPLA APPEAL.

You do not need it!

You could win all of these, with under a dozen words at POPLA stage:

''APCOA don't use the POFA so I'm not liable as keeper'' would win...
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