PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

20mph speed limit zones - Tunbridge Wells, Question re requirements for signage
jlsmith
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 08:48
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 126
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Member No.: 47,422



I'm not sure where best to post this - please move if necessary.

We recently received a telling-off letter from Kent Police following a speedwatch initiative in Tunbridge Wells, alleging our car had been clocked at 30mph in a 20mph speed zone. We were very surprised by this as we had literallly no idea the road in question was within a 20 mph zone, as we aren't local to the area.

Further googling reveals that some pretty extensive 20mph speed zones have been rolled out in TW. In this instance, after driving the route this morning, I can see that there are (in my opinion) not very easily seen signs a little like the third sign on page 2 of this document: http://www.20splentyforus.org.uk/UsefulRep...t_TAL-09-99.pdf.

The signs are located as you turn into Silverdale Road here, though are not visible on Streetview as they are relatively recent: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.1469379,0...3312!8i6656

The speedwatch team was located somewhere around here, after a number of junctions: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.1412386,0...3312!8i6656

In this whole area, other than these fairly incongruous 'gateway' signs, which I've missed every single time I've turned in at this junction, there are no repeater signs, roundels on the road, traffic calming or any other indication whatsoever that this is a 20mph zone. Thankfully on this occasion there was no notice to prosecute, but I would like to think that there would be a good chance of contesting it if there had been.

What are the esteemed contributors' views on the legality of this whole zone?

Many thanks,
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 12)
Advertisement
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 08:48
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
peterguk
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 08:52
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11,748
Joined: 22 Oct 2007
Member No.: 14,720



QUOTE (jlsmith @ Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 09:48) *
The signs are located as you turn into Silverdale Road here, though are not visible on Streetview as they are relatively recent: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.1469379,0...3312!8i6656


So GSV of no use at all. Photos of signs would assist if you want comments about them.


--------------------
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jlsmith
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 09:00
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 126
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Member No.: 47,422



If I can get pictures of the entrance signs I'll do so, but it won't be for another day or two. The point of the two GSV pics was intended to illustrate the extent of the zone. The entrance signs look exactly like those referred to in the referenced document.

My question is not so much around the entrance signs but the lack of any further prompts that the limit is 20. The whole area looks like a normal 30mph area.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 09:44
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,949
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



QUOTE (jlsmith @ Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 10:00) *
My question is not so much around the entrance signs but the lack of any further prompts that the limit is 20. The whole area looks like a normal 30mph area.

Without repeaters then it's not so clear.

Enforcement of such zones is not clear which is why the 'nice letter' approach is being used. (Although a 60mph measurement may been treated differently)

Either repeaters, roundels or calming measures should self regulate but the updated 2016 TSGRD lowered the requirements and a court may need to consider whether the limit was adequately conveyed. Not a perfect situation imho.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jlsmith
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 10:15
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 126
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Member No.: 47,422



Many thanks for that tip. Am I right in referring to page 182/3 of this document: http://tsrgd.co.uk/pdf/tsrgd/tsrgd-2016.pdf

This suggests, if I'm reading it correctly, that to be effective the speed zone must have a traffic calming feature at least every 50 metres...?

If that's the case then the zone would definitely not be compliant.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 12:39
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,949
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



As a zone, such 'calming' features should prevent 20mph from being realistically exceeded. Without those features, personally, I think repeaters or roundels should be present - but the context is important, e.g. how far from the terminal signs.

Are you looking to respond to the letter?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jlsmith
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 13:40
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 126
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Member No.: 47,422



I am intending to respond, because I do think the 20 zone is very extensive and doesn't comply with the guidelines. The whole zone looks like a very normal built up area. Absolutely no repeaters or traffic calming of any description.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 14:17
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,949
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



It will probably fall on deaf ears but you could make the point that the signage doesn't support their allegation. (That the terminal signs alone are not sufficient...)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jlsmith
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 14:20
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 126
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Member No.: 47,422



Thanks for the input!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
jlsmith
post Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 09:10
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 126
Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Member No.: 47,422



Just FYI, key bullet points of my interchange with the Speedwatch co-ordinator:

=======
First email:

I’ve recently received a notice of advice ... astonished this is a 20mph limit ... no compliant repeating signage / road furniture ... cites TSRGD 2016 ... appearance of a regular default 30mph zone ... zone legally & morally unenforceable ... why expect motorists comply with the rules if enforcing authority doesn’t bother to comply with the rules intended to communicate these restrictions ... please feed back to appropriate authorities.

Response:

Speedwatch is educational only ... no direct enforcement unless we have repeat offending ... Kent County Council Highways are responsible for the signage ... signage is required at the entry to the zone ... contact KCC Highways yourself.

My follow-up:

TSRGD 2016 is clear entry signage *alone* is insufficient ... repeat offending will continue as signage wholly non-compliant ... direct enforcement will fail ... if there was a genuine concern about speed & compliance it is well within your remit to take it up ... surprised you're not going to.
=======

Clearly if someone is exceeds 30mph there probably wouldn't be a defence. But it does annoy me that these people seem to have no genuine interest doing things properly.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 12:53
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,949
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



It is true the Police aren't responsible for the signage. But obviously the signage has to be correct for them to enforce limits. But it's always someone else's problem isn't it?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Incandescent
post Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 22:11
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11,407
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



Virtually all these 20 mph zones are political and have no basis on road safety, other than if speed is NIL, no accidents can occur so lets try to get to zero !. A lot of police forces oppose these limits because they are essentially unenforceable because everybody breaks them, and usually at well over the CPSO guidelines, as this is 10% plus 2 mph so anything over 23 is a NIP. Yes it is totally stupid and driven by the Blob.

Having said the above, I can think of several places in and around where I live where a 20 mph limited zone might be a good thing, but speeds are on that level already, so one could say it would be pointless anyway. The plain fact is that we have got to a state of complete insanity in central and local government on speed limits. The real problem is the level of traffic. In the horse age there were fatal road accidents, and it is mendacious to push for nil accidents.We are human and accidents will occur, even with self-driving cars. Just look at a film of pre-WW1 Market Street in Manchester. People commonly walked out in front of moving traffic and occasionally got knocked-down or killed. We need to deal with excessive traffic in places that can't handle it,but this means spending real money as the Buchanan Report pointed out 45 year ago.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
superSmiffy
post Thu, 19 Oct 2017 - 06:19
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 109
Joined: 18 Sep 2017
Member No.: 94,099



The key point you would need to make is not the legality of the signs but that the signs that were there did not provide drivers with adequate guidance.
The new sign regulations allow hardly any signs to be erected, something you have experienced by the look of it, so challenging the signs that are there is futile. Saying that you acknowledge there are signs but you were not properly guided by them is likely to be more successful.

This post has been edited by superSmiffy: Thu, 19 Oct 2017 - 06:19
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Sunday, 25th February 2018 - 01:33
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.