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Input of incorrect registration
furious88
post Thu, 10 Dec 2015 - 19:54
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Sorry if this is not seen as new item but cannot find anything on forums that covers issue exactly.

Have received PCN from Excel for alleged non payment of parking charges.
The car was being driven by my partner who is adamant that they paid the appropriate parking fee. However they do admit to the possibility of inputting an incorrect registration number. This was only the third time they had driven this new car alone. On returning home, I remember removing the ticket from the top of the dashboard from where they had left it. Unfortunately I saw no need to keep it.
Is it reasonable to challenge them to access the input registrations from that day and prove that there was no input that was obviously close to the actual cars number.

In mitigation, my argument is that Excel have not been financially deprived, in that the fee was paid.
Please could you advise on best way forward.

Thank you

This post has been edited by furious88: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 - 11:28
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post Thu, 10 Dec 2015 - 19:54
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cabbyman
post Thu, 10 Dec 2015 - 20:09
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Was this a windscreen PCN or postal?


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Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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furious88
post Thu, 10 Dec 2015 - 22:17
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It was a postal PCN.
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 10 Dec 2015 - 22:29
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So your search should say don't reveal the drivers ID. Edit your first post

Go to basics - does it comply with pofa2012? If not the keeper is not liable. Just the driver. Who they don't know...

Yes, stating the driver paid means they have to show the driver did not. You then require a full, unredacted log if every transaction that day.
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furious88
post Thu, 10 Dec 2015 - 23:17
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Thanks for the reply,
What is the reason for editing my first post?
I have read pofa 2012 and section 1 part A is true and section 1 b is not in that the fee was paid. Am I to take it that because we paid then they can't legitimately pursue unpaid charges even if we have not got proof readily at hand.
They have the proof (in the form of an incorrectly entered registration) within their records.
How do I progress?
Do I write to them to appeal, informing them that I was not the driver, without disclosing who was and that a fee was paid using the incorrect registration. Secondly, do I then formally request that the onus of proving non payment lies with them and to provide a log of all transactions that day showing that there is not a registration that is close to ours.
Sorry for being a pain but I am still incandescent with rage and don't want to write anything incriminating that may damage our case.




This post has been edited by furious88: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 - 23:21
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Majestix
post Thu, 10 Dec 2015 - 23:36
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You disclosed the driver in your first post. Expect the company to read these forums.
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The Rookie
post Fri, 11 Dec 2015 - 06:30
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As you clearly haven't revealed who was driving, ignore that suggestion you have. How a PPC can find out the name of 'my partner' is beyond me!


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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 11 Dec 2015 - 13:17
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It gives a contextual link that isn't needed.

You appeal as keeper, pointing out they have not complied with pofa to hold the keeper liable and the keeper was not driving. Furthermore the driver paid for parking, and it would be a trivial exercise to match an incorrect registration to this period.

They must cancel or take it up with the driver
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furious88
post Fri, 11 Dec 2015 - 23:37
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Thanks Nosferatu1001

Can I take from this that there is no legal obligation for me to disclose who the driver was and answer appeal as keeper, pointing out that unless they disclose a full log proving non payment, I will consider the matter closed.
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nosferatu1001
post Sat, 12 Dec 2015 - 01:31
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No, no legal requirement to disclose the driver. Your reading on this forum will state that.

Why are you asking for the log? You, as keeper, have no liability in the matter. It is already closed for you.
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furious88
post Tue, 15 Dec 2015 - 22:30
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Nosferatu1001
Have spent the weekend reading and trying to understand POFA. My understanding is that I have to disclose the drivers name. What section clears me of that obligation.
One area where they have not complied is that I received the letter 18 days after the alleged incident. This is four days outside the 14 day limit for serving notice.
Is that also a breach on their part.
Just trying to get as much info as possible to send back to them and need to understand which sections of POFA I can relate to in pointing out their errors.

This post has been edited by furious88: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 - 22:31
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ostell
post Tue, 15 Dec 2015 - 22:42
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Where in POFA does it say that there is a requirement to declare the driver's name? There is no such requirement, though the parking companies try to make you believe that there is.

You've got the idea about non compliance. If they want to make the keeper liable they have to comply with the requirements of POFA. Outside of 14 days means that they have not and hence can only go after the driver, who you are not required to name.

Look carefully at the NTK. Which other requirements are missing ? The statement that "The creditor is", the period of parking (not just a "preceding" statement) plus all the other things mentioned in POFA. Failure of any 1 item makes no keeper liability. There is a check list around that shows all the items to be looked for.

You tell them that they have failed to comply with the requirements of POFA that allow them to hold the keeper liable and please contact the driver.
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furious88
post Tue, 29 Dec 2015 - 23:45
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Gents

Still confused. Having read the PCN again. It does not mention "notice to driver or keeper" anywhere. What is this document? My understanding of POFA is that if it is an ANPR ticket then there is a requirement to issue a PCN within 14 days to the keeper where the driver has not been identified. Is this right?
Where it is confusing is it states that they can only apply for the keepers details from the DVLA after 28 days when the driver is not identified. If so, then they have clearly contravened this by applying straight away.
Is the PCN received a notice to driver/keeper? or is it just an attempt to get the keeper to name the driver. If I write back appealing as keeper and not naming the driver, are they then going to issue a Notice to Keeper legitimately thus reducing my chances of using non compliance to POFA as a defence. Is there any way I can speak to someone and clarify.
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 30 Dec 2015 - 00:24
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If no notice was placed on the windscreen, what you have is a notice to keeper. This must arrive within 14 days to meet pofa as regards Keeper liability ( as well as containing a huge amount of other info which PPC s usually get wrong, this is just the first bit they can screw up on)

You appeal as keeper. The money saving expert newbies thread has a good one.

Don't miss their deadlines.
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ford poplar
post Wed, 30 Dec 2015 - 02:54
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IMO #1 does not contain sufficient location info, so please provide exact location of Contravention (private retail/venue car park operated by Excel, with nearest GSV link to entrance used. A copy of Notice received, with all identifiable features redacted, would be useful.

Many unmanned car parks us ANPR to compare enterig/departing vehicle VRNs against inputted VRNs for paid parking tickets (which you discarded. ir is unlikely if in present, inputted wrong VRN since you received Parking Charge Invoice,
How you deal with that is up to you.
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ostell
post Wed, 30 Dec 2015 - 09:15
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QUOTE (furious88 @ Tue, 29 Dec 2015 - 23:45) *
Gents

Still confused. Having read the PCN again. It does not mention "notice to driver or keeper" anywhere. What is this document? My understanding of POFA is that if it is an ANPR ticket then there is a requirement to issue a PCN within 14 days to the keeper where the driver has not been identified. Is this right?
Where it is confusing is it states that they can only apply for the keepers details from the DVLA after 28 days when the driver is not identified. If so, then they have clearly contravened this by applying straight away.
Is the PCN received a notice to driver/keeper? or is it just an attempt to get the keeper to name the driver. If I write back appealing as keeper and not naming the driver, are they then going to issue a Notice to Keeper legitimately thus reducing my chances of using non compliance to POFA as a defence. Is there any way I can speak to someone and clarify.


POFA is split into multiple paragraphs, as you have found. Paragraph 8 applies if there was a windscreen ticket and gives the 28/56 day timing. Paragraph 9 covers the no windscreen ticket and give the 14 days limit.

Nowhere does it require the driver to be identified. You take the first letter received as a notice to keeper as they do not know the driver, who you don't tell them and have no legal requirement to do so.

Since there was not a windscreen ticket then they have missed the 14 days limit and therefore cannot now issue a valid NTK

Edit:
You write to them and ask for an unedited and unredacted copy of the parking machine log for that day (so that you can check for a number that could be yours). I helped someone earlier this year in aa similar situation. The entry may be of interest to you.

This post has been edited by ostell: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 - 09:26
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furious88
post Mon, 1 Feb 2016 - 21:59
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Gents

Having sent a letter to Excel, stating that as keeper I am not required to name the driver and that the PCN notice was received after the time limit. I have received a reply stating that they are "proceeding on the reasonable assumption that you were the driver of the vehicle on the date in question unless you are able to prove the contrary"

As originally stated, I was not the driver and am willing to take an oath on that. In the photograph on the PCN it can also be seen that the driver does not resemble me.

They have said that they had checked their records and could not find any ticket purchased that matches or resembles my VRN.

In my appeal I also stated that they had not met the requirements of schedule 4 in POFA. They seem to have ignored this.

They have given me the option of appeal through IAS with relevant information. Please advise as to whether I appeal using the same grounds or am I wasting my time in that there appears little difference between Excel and the IAS.

With reference to the last reply from Ostell. The letter received does not mention notice to Keeper, so is this just a further attempt to intimidate me.

Is it also reasonable to approach the CCTV controllers of the site and ask for footage of the ticket machine proving the drivers attendance at the time and to write back to Excell asking for a copy of their records.

Sorry if this seems a little jumbled. I am unsure as to how to proceed.
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freddy1
post Mon, 1 Feb 2016 - 22:05
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They have said that they had checked their records and could not find any ticket purchased that matches or resembles my VRN.


why your VRN , you were not there , did you give them the reg no that the driver entered?

This post has been edited by freddy1: Mon, 1 Feb 2016 - 22:06
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ostell
post Mon, 1 Feb 2016 - 22:20
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There will be no CCTV operators, it's all done by software.

As you've found by your reading IAS are wasted space and will find for the PPC. It's not up to you to prove that your weren't the driver, for them to take action against the driver they have to positively identify. That would be the way the courts do it but that's not they way of the IAS.

You could appeal to the IAS using the same appeal and also ask for and as you believe that they do not have authority to claim a charge from you you will require an unredacted copy of their contract, a witness statement being insufficient, and un unredacted copy of their Payment machine log.

Your appeal will be refused but it will stand in good stead if they dare to take it any further.
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furious88
post Mon, 1 Feb 2016 - 22:25
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Not sure what you mean Freddy1.

The driver definitely paid a parking fee but given the PCN I can only assume that the incorrect registration was input and that they are saying that there is no record of anything near or resembling it. Given that the registration was input correctly I can't begin to speculate as to what number was entered other than something similar.
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