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Totting up court date pending, Representing yourself in court
doobiemcgee
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 09:40
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Hi all,

I am awaiting a court date after totting up for speeding having been on 9 points all for SP30s, and got a speeding ticket a few months ago by an average speed camera.

Having had the initial letters for identifying the driver etc, given my points tally I am now just awaiting a court date from the MPS and wanted to ask some advice on representing myself in court.

Bit of background.

Employment
I work for a manufacturer as a regional account manager and require my company vehicle to be able to work and meet my accounts between London and the south coast, and without my car, would result in the possible loss of my job. My employer is actually very supportive and has offered to write a letter to the court to stress my value to the company and requirement to use a company vehicle. My concern is a bad result in court, could also turn my employer against me.

Points

At the time of writing 3 points have since dropped off my points tally so I am now down to 6, however I still await a court date as I was on 9 points at the time, and so still falls into totting up. its unfortunate my 3 points that have just dropped wasn't a couple months earlier. With my remaining points 3 come off in a year, then the final 3 another year later.

Court Representation

I cannot afford to hire a solicitor, so want to know how best to represent myself, and tips also for if it is advisable, whether to see if possible to negotiate with the prosecution at court. My wife has a low paid job and so if I were to lose my job my home would be at risk as my wifes earnings would be insufficient, so would be looking for exceptional hardship consideration.

Final Thought

..and yes I know I've been stupid for totting up. I have a job driving approx 3000-4000 miles a month up and down the country with customers calling all the time, and under pressure to see a quota of customers daily. In my line of work speeding offences have become an occupational hazard which I have learnt to my detriment. Short of a change of career I am stuck between a rock and a hard place . Any help and guidance would be appreciated.

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post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 09:40
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Jlc
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 09:50
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What do you mean by negotiating with the prosecution? In your situation the prosecution don't really have anything to do - it's the EH plea to the bench that's key. (Presuming you are pleading straight guilty)

How the points were accumulated and the status is irrelevant. Of course you could mention the situation to hopefully influence the bench in your favour.

In terms of a solicitor, there's a train of thought that self representation may come over better instead of someone else speaking on your behalf. Being nervous and genuinely afraid might actually assist.

However, in terms of the plea itself you need to concentrate on the impact on others. Whilst losing your job in itself is not strictly seen as truly exceptional. Indeed, for them to consider the impact on your employer they would need to show your inability to perform your role is going to impact them, I.e. is it specialist and they may suffer if they cannot reasonably replace you.

Likewise, people lose their jobs all the time and being able to drive is not a right. But the impact on your home situation is something they can consider, again if truly considered exceptional. They may ask you whether you, or your employer, have considered alternative arrangements. Additionally, be prepared to be asked if your licence is so critical why did you risk it?

This may all seem quite negative, but it's better to a have realistic expectations and being prepared for the worse, hoping for the best...

This post has been edited by Jlc: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 09:55


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doobiemcgee
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 10:30
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thanks mate, I meant if there was any means of negotiating with the opposing side, be it the bench or CPS. Never been to court before so apologies as I'm not au fait with the process or who I can possibly talk to or not before and during the process.

I figured as you rightly say representing myself is more honest so it doesn't look like I'm just paying someone to get me off the hook, but rather hope an honest account from myself may offer some leniency. I am pleading guilty as I am bang to rights so to speak and just hoping to mitigate the penalty imposed.

My employer would certainly be able to mark my employment as specialist given I am known in my sector of industry so would be hard to replace particularly with the relationships I have built with key clients would also risk loss of business and account retention, as well as market insight in my field. All of which my employer will support in writing to some degree. I believe my employer have a modus operandi should the worst happen to possibly keep me on board, but given the situation they also are tentative about what that may look like and dont want me to suggest that is an optionor disclose it.

Your point on being asked why I risked my licence is interesting as I would suggest it was not with intent. In part it was a stretch of an A-Road that changed for 40-50-40 several times so was caught out in a lapse of concentration. My in car nav also showed a continuous speed limit of 50 which I know is no excuses, but as its a new car youd expect it to be accurate. (and yes I know I need to pay attention to the street signs first). I guess I need to be careful not to sound like im making excuses, but think they should understand the nature of my job to understand how the lapse was possible??
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NewJudge
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 10:40
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Yes there is nothing to negotiate with the prosecutor. You will receive your points and then be asked if you want to make an "Exceptional Hardship" plea.

As it stands the hardship you have mentioned (loss of employment) is nothing exceptional. Anybody who needs to be able to drive to do their job faces losing it in your circumstances. You need to concentrate on anything that is "Exceptional" (i.e. that would not be so for most other drivers). Is there anything you face that is truly exceptional? As mentioned, impact on others usually carries more weight than impact on yourself (the theory being that others should not necessarily suffer for your transgressions). Are others in your company going to suffer if you are sacked? Do you have any family circumstances that will be unduly effected by you being banned? This is the only way you can "mitigate" the ban aspect of the penalty. The legislation says that the mandatory six month disqualification can be "reduced" by a successful argument but in practice the court will either accept your argument and impose no ban or reject it and ban you for six months. It's very rare to see anything in between.

If you post your proposed argument on here you may receive useful critique.

You should bear in mind that your court date will possibly be up to six or seven months from the date of the offence. Most importantly you should realise that if your EH argument is successful you will leave the court with nine "active" points and you cannot make another EH plea using the same reasons within three years.

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 10:43
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cabbyman
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 10:44
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I think that if you try to justify a lapse, the court may feel that maybe you need a break from driving. Only a personal view.

Your employer sounds like the best plea on your behalf. If they can honestly show a detrimental effect on their business if you were unable to drive. Make sure that the public transport aspect is examined and make a decision on it's practicality.


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NewJudge
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 10:51
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The circumstances that led to your latest points are not an issue when EH is considered. Quite frankly there is not much you need to say about the latest offence as you will receive three points come what may. Concentrate your efforts on your EH argument.
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doobiemcgee
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 11:00
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Thanks.

If I lose my job and cannot pay my mortgage and lose my home, my wife will be affected as we would both be effectively homeless as she cannot afford to pay to keep up repayments. She would be the only person directly affected in terms of family.

In terms of work, the impact to my employer is loss of business and account retention, but would not impact other employees. There is an argument they could lose significant footing in the region that I operate which includes London and the south so could have a major impact as relationships I've built are such that clients trade with my company because of the relationship I have with a large number of companies which my employer is well aware off which is why they have been supportive to my situation.

Public transport is not an option as I visit companies all over the South of England so it simply is not an option as it would not be possible to visit clients unless by car as my region is vastly huge in size and have to travel through rural areas as well.

Looks like I will need to ensure I get the best possible letter of support from my employer as to the impact a driving ban imposed on my would affect there business, whilst pushing EH on the loss of my home impacting my wife who would be directly affected.



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The Rookie
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 11:16
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Any letter from your employer needs to emphasises that a car is a must for you to do the job and how losing you would impact the rest of the business.

You talk about losing your home, but clearly your not expected to sit on your ass but actually find some work during that six months!

That said the evidence suggests that circa 25% of totting bans are avoided via an exceptional hardship plea, so the definition of exceptional may be a little ‘softer’ than it sounds.


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Jlc
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 11:28
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QUOTE (doobiemcgee @ Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 12:00) *
If I lose my job and cannot pay my mortgage and lose my home

Yes, but you have to show that is truly exceptional, i.e. beyond that normally suffered.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Logician
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 12:06
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How it will work is that an usher will show you into the court and you will either go into the dock or alongside it, there are likely to be three magistrates, their legal advisor sitting in front of them and a prosecutor on the other side of the court. The charge will be read and you will be asked how you plead, which will clearly be guilty. The prosecutor will give brief facts of the case and the bench will ask if you have anything to say about this particular case, you could say nothing or prepare the ground slightly by explaining that you drive 3/4000 miles a month all over the country in your job as regional sales manager. You have been on 9 points so have been very careful about your driving but were caught out by a succession of speed limit changes along a particular road and apologise for your lack of concentration. Many magistrates will sympathise with a high mileage driver, others will take the line that an experienced driver should know better. Anyway this will make little or no difference to the sentence which will almost certainly closely follow the guidance given to magistrates, and will now be announced by the Chair of the bench.

They may then go on immediately to point out that you know have 12 points, that means you would normally be disqualified for 6 months and ask if you wish to make an exceptional hardship application. When you indicate that you do you will be asked to go into the witness box and be sworn in. There is no opportunity to talk to anyone about it before this point. The prosecutor is entitled to be there and may ask questions but is not really very concerned in this process which is between you and the magistrates. Many people find it useful to write out what they are going to say to ensure nothing is forgotten, you can either read it out or ask the bench to read it. If you are not going to read it out take 6 copies, 3 for the magistrates, one for the legal advisor, one for the prosecutor and of course one for yourself.

The bench will ask questions about your circumstances and may questions alternative arrangements to you driving, for example if you are so valuable to your company and have particular knowledge, perhaps another employee could drive you around and learn the ropes, and you answer might be that it would be a considerable cost for 6 months. Or if your wife is not earning much anyway, could she drive you? Once this is completed the bench will probably go out and discuss your situation amongst themselves before returning to give their decision, which will be either that they do not find exceptional hardship or they do will either not disqualify you or do so for a shorter period, which is rarer. If a disqualification is imposed it starts immediately so do not plan to drive away from the court. If no disqualification is imposed you remain on 9 points and cannot use the same exceptional hardship argument again for 3 years.


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doobiemcgee
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 12:40
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Thank you so much great advice and insight so I can prepare as best I can. Although from the looks of it may be several months before I even get a court date.

Not wanting to tempt fate, as this whole thing has got me paranoid, but what if I got another speeding ticket before my court date?? Would this be heard at the same time, or would it be separate in which case my EH plea second time round will clearly not wash.
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Logician
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 12:48
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QUOTE (doobiemcgee @ Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 13:40) *
Thank you so much great advice and insight so I can prepare as best I can. Although from the looks of it may be several months before I even get a court date. Not wanting to tempt fate, as this whole thing has got me paranoid, but what if I got another speeding ticket before my court date?? Would this be heard at the same time, or would it be separate in which case my EH plea second time round will clearly not wash.


You should certainly ask that the case be heard at the same time. Cases are normally heard in the area in which the alleged offence occurred, so it may require one court asking another to agree the transfer. That should not be a problem, everyone will understand why it should be done.



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NewJudge
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 12:48
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If you are unfortunate enough to commit another offence you must get them heard at the same time. The worst case scenario is this: you make your EH plea successfully based on the offences you have mentioned here. Off you go, pleased as punch (with nine points on your licence). Back you come to court for the new offence, you again face a "totting up" ban but this time cannot use your successful EH argument.

It's usually possible to get matters heard together but you must be careful. If you commit an offence a few days before your hearing there will not be time to get your matters amalgamated (you have to respond to the S172 notice, etc.). You would then have to ask the magistrates for an adjournment until your latest offence is ready for court. They may not agree and it all gets very messy.

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 12:48
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doobiemcgee
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 12:55
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.

This post has been edited by doobiemcgee: Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 15:19
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Mayhem007
post Sun, 12 Aug 2018 - 10:50
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Do you know where the case will be heard. If so I suggest a couple of visits to the magistrates so as to see the procedures they go through, which in essence has been stated in previous posts by others.
At least when it comes to the big day you should feel relatively comfortable. You can ask one of the ushers if it is okay to take notes, they will confer with the legal advisor and there shouldn't be a problem. You're not taking notes of any particular case, just rather seeing how cases are conducted in the magistrates.


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NewJudge
post Sun, 12 Aug 2018 - 11:57
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QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Sun, 12 Aug 2018 - 11:50) *
You can ask one of the ushers if it is okay to take notes, they will confer with the legal advisor and there shouldn't be a problem.

There's no need. Business conducted in Magistrates' Courts involving solely adults (over 18s) is, with one or two exceptions which are unlikely to apply here, information in the public domain. There is nothing to prevent anybody taking notes of anything that is said. However you cannot record the proceedings (either in sound or vision) or take photographs.

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Sun, 12 Aug 2018 - 11:58
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Mayhem007
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 15:56
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Sun, 12 Aug 2018 - 11:57) *
QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Sun, 12 Aug 2018 - 11:50) *
You can ask one of the ushers if it is okay to take notes, they will confer with the legal advisor and there shouldn't be a problem.

There's no need. Business conducted in Magistrates' Courts involving solely adults (over 18s) is, with one or two exceptions which are unlikely to apply here, information in the public domain. There is nothing to prevent anybody taking notes of anything that is said. However you cannot record the proceedings (either in sound or vision) or take photographs.

All I can say is that when I had notebook and pen in my hand I was politely confronted by the usher, who then got conformation from the legal advisor if it was okay to take notes. And as you say they did advise me that I could not record, video or take photographs of the proceedings.
Perhaps the usher was just making sure that all the cases on that day were adults. So it might be best to put the question to the usher to avoid any confusion.


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Logician
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 21:43
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The thing to say to the usher is that you are there to observe.


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