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Possible Unenforceable speed camera in London
Aiden
post Sat, 1 Jun 2019 - 21:57
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I'm slightly concerned on a stretch of road I commute down for which road words had been happening on for two years. I just wanted to get a discussion going to see if it's worth raising it with the authority in case some poor soul gets hit with a speed ticket yet the signage isn't there properly.

The speed camera in question can be seen here: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.590714,0.21...6384!8i8192

So long story short, up until about April 2019, road works had been going on and the speed limit for that entire stretch of road was set to 30MPH. Since the road works had finished, that speed limit had been increased to its original 40MPH speed limit. No complaints there. The google earth picture was taken with the road works ongoing so it's not a true image of the road from today as it's about a year out.

About 40meters before that speed camera is reached, a 30mph speed limit repeater is stuck on the lamp posts on both side of the road. We also have a 30MPH speed limit painted on the road.

From what I understood, for a speed limit to be enforceable, don't we need those large 30mph speed limit signs or is the repeater and road markings enough? I should mention that there is no large sign at all indicating the start of a 30MPH limit. The previous speed limit sign is a 40mph one

This post has been edited by Aiden: Sat, 1 Jun 2019 - 21:59
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post Sat, 1 Jun 2019 - 21:57
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BaggieBoy
post Sat, 1 Jun 2019 - 23:40
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There is a system of streetlights, no signs needed. The "repeater" is one of those camera warning types.
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Aiden
post Sun, 2 Jun 2019 - 01:21
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QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Sun, 2 Jun 2019 - 00:40) *
There is a system of streetlights, no signs needed. The "repeater" is one of those camera warning types.


Ok, but before hand its all street lights too and the limit is 40MPH. In fact, when I turn onto the road, there's even a 40MPH limit sign too.

With the repeater being small and possible being unreadable at night, wouldn't that be a concern if you combine the fact that they could easily see the 40mph limit with street lights and possible miss the 30mph.

I think it may help if I upload a clip from my dash cam on monday coming down that road so you guys can see exactly what's happened since
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Jlc
post Sun, 2 Jun 2019 - 09:42
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What does the TRO say?


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PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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cp8759
post Sun, 2 Jun 2019 - 13:35
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QUOTE (Aiden @ Sun, 2 Jun 2019 - 02:21) *
Ok, but before hand its all street lights too and the limit is 40MPH. In fact, when I turn onto the road, there's even a 40MPH limit sign too.

There must be terminal 30 mph signs where the limit drops from 40 to 30. If it is possible to pass a 40 sign and then get to the camera without passing a terminal 30 sign, there would appear to be an issue with the signage. Post a link to the location on google street view to this turning you speak of.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Aiden
post Sun, 2 Jun 2019 - 19:08
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Sun, 2 Jun 2019 - 10:42) *
What does the TRO say?


My understanding was that for a change in speed limit, we should have one of those large red circle's with the new speed within on both sides of the road

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 2 Jun 2019 - 14:35) *
QUOTE (Aiden @ Sun, 2 Jun 2019 - 02:21) *
Ok, but before hand its all street lights too and the limit is 40MPH. In fact, when I turn onto the road, there's even a 40MPH limit sign too.

There must be terminal 30 mph signs where the limit drops from 40 to 30. If it is possible to pass a 40 sign and then get to the camera without passing a terminal 30 sign, there would appear to be an issue with the signage. Post a link to the location on google street view to this turning you speak of.


Google street view is about a year out of date for that road, so tomorrow I'll drive down on my way home from work with my dash cam on to show you guys exactly what I see from the turning up to the speed camera.

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Aiden
post Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 19:01
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Sorry for the delay. I never got around to going down the road until today.

I've uploaded the video here: https://streamable.com/l2uxl

To give a bit of context, I didn't upload the part of me turning to the road as that's irrelevant. There are actually 40MPH speed signs on the main road itself.
I can't see any large 30MPH still

Key points of the video (from what i see):
0:05 -> 40MPH sign on the right of the road
0:09 -> 40MPH sign on left of the road
0:17 -> First 30MPH indication on the surface of the road
0:18 -> Small 30MPH sign on right of the road
0:25 -> Second 30MPH printed on the surface of the road
(Some unfortunate traffic starts here)
0:50 -> Small 30MPH speed signs on both sides of the road
1:05 -> Last 30MPH road sign and the speed camera on the left enforcing 30MPH
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bama
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 20:23
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isn't it SOP for the termimal signs etc to be checked by the enforcement bods before setting up ?
IIRC it used to be. (and was more observed in the breach than in the observance...have known them to eff it up with long term static cameras never mind temporary ones)


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Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

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cp8759
post Sat, 3 Aug 2019 - 00:58
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In the absence of terminal signs there could be some enforcement difficulties with these signs, but it's not a sure thing. It would all be very fact specific.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 3 Aug 2019 - 12:03
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40mph terminal sign

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5887832,0.2...6384!8i8192

30mph road marking, there are 3 of these + 2 of the repeaters but no 30mph terminal signs

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.589473,0.21...6384!8i8192


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cp8759
post Sat, 3 Aug 2019 - 16:04
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In heavy / queuing traffic the road markings might be obscured.

There are no repeaters as repeaters are prohibited on a lit 30 mph road, there are a couple of information signs (diagram 880) but there might be a lorry in lane 2 obscuring your view of the first diagram 880 sign, you then move to lane two and again there's a high-sided vehicle blocking the other diagram 880 sign, you get to the speed cameras when traffic has freed up a bit and confidently go past with your sat-nav showing you're dead on 40 mph and FLASH FLASH.

Not a sure thing by any means, but to be honest I'm not convinced the police would even pursue it once the signage issues were pointed out to them.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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