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Pedestrian area fine in Italy - debt collection letter received, Debt Collection from Waters & Gate
marcfastcars
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 18:17
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Hello people.

I'm after a bit of advice please...

I was caught driving in a pedestrian area in Rome in July 2016 and received a fine in 2017. The hire car company charged my credit card (approx. €50.00) to provide the Italian authorities with my name and address.

I chose to ignore the actual fine and had forgotten all about it, until now!

Today I've received a letter from a debt collection company called Waters & Gate in North Shields. They're attempting to relieve me of a very generous £287.09. The letter sounds pretty serious and they're using what I would assume are scaremongering tactics to encourage me to pay.

Do I need to pay this? Is there anything further that they can do if I simply ignore them? At the end of the day, I've never actually admitted to driving the car at the time of the offence - for all they know, the hire car company could have incorrectly provided my details as the driver at the time of the offence.

Do they have any legal right to backup what their letter says?

I've attached a picture of the letter (with my details removed) for reference.

Thanks in advance!

For some reason, I can't add an attachment sad.gif

Basically, the letter says:

Instructed by Municipality of Rome to recover full payment relating to the infringement (the infringement details they've given appear to be correct)
We require full payment in 5 days
Failure to pay with incur further costs
Ignoring this letter will result in further action and may affect your ability to obtain credit

Thanks!

This post has been edited by marcfastcars: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 20:05
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post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 18:17
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cp8759
post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 15:41
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sat, 15 Sep 2018 - 08:42) *
QUOTE (marcfastcars @ Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 22:29) *
If I was to pay, would Italy even get any of the money?

Depends on the arrangement between the Italian authorities and the DCA, that is likley that the DCA will get a cut (fixed or percentage) if they recover, but it could be (I think unlikley) that they have been sold the right to chase the debt and that the Italian authorities already have all the money they are going to get.

I doubt it would be lawful to sell a criminal penalty in the same way you can sell a civil debt. I think it's far more likely the money goes to Italy and the DCA are paid a commission or fixed fee.


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The Rookie
post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 20:05
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I agree it’s very unlikely but given it’s a totally different jurisdiction I wouldn’t say never.


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southpaw82
post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 22:26
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 21:05) *
I agree it’s very unlikely but given it’s a totally different jurisdiction I wouldn’t say never.

Raises an interesting point on conflicts of laws.


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cp8759
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 20:13
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 23:26) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 21:05) *
I agree it’s very unlikely but given it’s a totally different jurisdiction I wouldn’t say never.

Raises an interesting point on conflicts of laws.

It does indeed, but ultimately if the DCA is in England and the debtor is in England, it's going to fall to the English courts to resolve any disputes. Even if in Italy you can legally parcel up and sell a criminal fine, how would you enforce that in England? The Brussels regulation is irrelevant, as it covers civil debts. And which courts would have jurisdiction? The Italian criminal courts would presumably be out of the picture, so how do you plead not guilty to the underlying offence and exercise your Article 6 rights? And which English court would have jurisdiction, Magistrates' Court, County Court or the High Court of Chivalry? And why did the EU bother introducing a cross border enforcement mechanism if you could just parcel up debts in this way?

I'm sorry but IMO, there's simply no chance of a private company being able to buy a foreign criminal fine debt and actually enforce that debt in England and Wales.


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baroudeur
post Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 16:31
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 21:13) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 23:26) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 21:05) *
I agree it’s very unlikely but given it’s a totally different jurisdiction I wouldn’t say never.

Raises an interesting point on conflicts of laws.

It does indeed, but ultimately if the DCA is in England and the debtor is in England, it's going to fall to the English courts to resolve any disputes. Even if in Italy you can legally parcel up and sell a criminal fine, how would you enforce that in England? The Brussels regulation is irrelevant, as it covers civil debts. And which courts would have jurisdiction? The Italian criminal courts would presumably be out of the picture, so how do you plead not guilty to the underlying offence and exercise your Article 6 rights? And which English court would have jurisdiction, Magistrates' Court, County Court or the High Court of Chivalry? And why did the EU bother introducing a cross border enforcement mechanism if you could just parcel up debts in this way?

I'm sorry but IMO, there's simply no chance of a private company being able to buy a foreign criminal fine debt and actually enforce that debt in England and Wales.


Cross Border Enforcement permits the registered keeper's details to be obtained by the appropriate authority in one country from that of another country in relation to specific motoring offences. There is no provision for recovery of any penalties in the CBE and, although some countries have put in place agreements between them for the recovery of penalties, the UK is not one of them - so far.

This post has been edited by baroudeur: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 16:31
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cp8759
post Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 20:29
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QUOTE (baroudeur @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 17:31) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 21:13) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 23:26) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 21:05) *
I agree it’s very unlikely but given it’s a totally different jurisdiction I wouldn’t say never.

Raises an interesting point on conflicts of laws.

It does indeed, but ultimately if the DCA is in England and the debtor is in England, it's going to fall to the English courts to resolve any disputes. Even if in Italy you can legally parcel up and sell a criminal fine, how would you enforce that in England? The Brussels regulation is irrelevant, as it covers civil debts. And which courts would have jurisdiction? The Italian criminal courts would presumably be out of the picture, so how do you plead not guilty to the underlying offence and exercise your Article 6 rights? And which English court would have jurisdiction, Magistrates' Court, County Court or the High Court of Chivalry? And why did the EU bother introducing a cross border enforcement mechanism if you could just parcel up debts in this way?

I'm sorry but IMO, there's simply no chance of a private company being able to buy a foreign criminal fine debt and actually enforce that debt in England and Wales.


Cross Border Enforcement permits the registered keeper's details to be obtained by the appropriate authority in one country from that of another country in relation to specific motoring offences. There is no provision for recovery of any penalties in the CBE and, although some countries have put in place agreements between them for the recovery of penalties, the UK is not one of them - so far.

This is not true, have a look at Part 30 of the Criminal Procedure Rules https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure...015-part-30.pdf in particular the section on "Financial penalties imposed in other European Union member States"


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baroudeur
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 12:20
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 21:29) *
QUOTE (baroudeur @ Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 17:31) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 21:13) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 23:26) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 21:05) *
I agree it’s very unlikely but given it’s a totally different jurisdiction I wouldn’t say never.

Raises an interesting point on conflicts of laws.

It does indeed, but ultimately if the DCA is in England and the debtor is in England, it's going to fall to the English courts to resolve any disputes. Even if in Italy you can legally parcel up and sell a criminal fine, how would you enforce that in England? The Brussels regulation is irrelevant, as it covers civil debts. And which courts would have jurisdiction? The Italian criminal courts would presumably be out of the picture, so how do you plead not guilty to the underlying offence and exercise your Article 6 rights? And which English court would have jurisdiction, Magistrates' Court, County Court or the High Court of Chivalry? And why did the EU bother introducing a cross border enforcement mechanism if you could just parcel up debts in this way?

I'm sorry but IMO, there's simply no chance of a private company being able to buy a foreign criminal fine debt and actually enforce that debt in England and Wales.


Cross Border Enforcement permits the registered keeper's details to be obtained by the appropriate authority in one country from that of another country in relation to specific motoring offences. There is no provision for recovery of any penalties in the CBE and, although some countries have put in place agreements between them for the recovery of penalties, the UK is not one of them - so far.

This is not true, have a look at Part 30 of the Criminal Procedure Rules https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure...015-part-30.pdf in particular the section on "Financial penalties imposed in other European Union member States"


Directive EU 2015/413 (CROSS BORDER AGREEMENT) to which I specifically referred, relates only to the provision of vehicle 'owners' details between EU countries.

Your link is to Criminal Procedures which, when I have referred it on other occasions, gets dismissed with the comment that it's never been tried for motoring penalties.


Cross Border Agreement

This post has been edited by baroudeur: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 12:22
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L.Saroyan
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 21:52
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Again it is claimed by 'baroudeur' that
QUOTE
There is no provision for recovery of any penalties in the CBE and, although some countries have put in place agreements between them for the recovery of penalties, the UK is not one of them - so far.
and
QUOTE
Criminal Procedures which, when I have referred it on other occasions, gets dismissed with the comment that it's never been tried for motoring penalties.

I have given an example link to a case on these forums before. Here it is again.
That thread itself proves that it has been tried and tried successfully. When I brought attention to this before the thread went quiet. There is even a government committee report (see 153.) mentioning amounts recovered using those very procedures.

It hasn't yet been established whether this is technically a criminal offense in Italy. But seeing as the OP is being pursued by a civil debt company it is likely not. Or perhaps the Italian police are unaware of, or otherwise unable to use, the other more effective measures available.
Regardless it's not very likely that the OP is going to be compelled to pay in the same way as the thread I have linked above. If they were going to go down that route the debt collection company wouldn't be in the picture.

I only post rarely but I don't like the misinformation that there is no way to ever be made to pay for foreign traffic offense once you are back home. As I have said it is possible and it has happened. Just because it's rare doesn't mean it won't happen.

This post has been edited by L.Saroyan: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 21:56
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Churchmouse
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 10:39
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QUOTE (L.Saroyan @ Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 22:52) *
Again it is claimed by 'baroudeur' that
QUOTE
There is no provision for recovery of any penalties in the CBE and, although some countries have put in place agreements between them for the recovery of penalties, the UK is not one of them - so far.
and
QUOTE
Criminal Procedures which, when I have referred it on other occasions, gets dismissed with the comment that it's never been tried for motoring penalties.

I have given an example link to a case on these forums before. Here it is again.
That thread itself proves that it has been tried and tried successfully. When I brought attention to this before the thread went quiet. There is even a government committee report (see 153.) mentioning amounts recovered using those very procedures.

It hasn't yet been established whether this is technically a criminal offense in Italy. But seeing as the OP is being pursued by a civil debt company it is likely not. Or perhaps the Italian police are unaware of, or otherwise unable to use, the other more effective measures available.
Regardless it's not very likely that the OP is going to be compelled to pay in the same way as the thread I have linked above. If they were going to go down that route the debt collection company wouldn't be in the picture.

I only post rarely but I don't like the misinformation that there is no way to ever be made to pay for foreign traffic offense once you are back home. As I have said it is possible and it has happened. Just because it's rare doesn't mean it won't happen.

(Oops, I initially replied in the old thread... Which I will now delete)

QUOTE
The confusion above is related to the CBE, which does not contain any enforcement provisions. Enforcement can take place under the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 (s.84), as you have pointed out. The 2012 case you referenced is a sad one, because it appears that the defendant's "fundamental rights" were denied by a UK court, but it seems that it is still relatively rare for this sort of enforcement to be undertaken. (Perhaps nearly doubling the speed limit through a village was too egregious for the German authorities to ignore?)


--Churchmouse
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baroudeur
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 10:57
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QUOTE (L.Saroyan @ Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 22:52) *
Again it is claimed by 'baroudeur' that
QUOTE
There is no provision for recovery of any penalties in the CBE and, although some countries have put in place agreements between them for the recovery of penalties, the UK is not one of them - so far.
and
QUOTE
Criminal Procedures which, when I have referred it on other occasions, gets dismissed with the comment that it's never been tried for motoring penalties.

I have given an example link to a case on these forums before. Here it is again.
That thread itself proves that it has been tried and tried successfully. When I brought attention to this before the thread went quiet. There is even a government committee report (see 153.) mentioning amounts recovered using those very procedures.

It hasn't yet been established whether this is technically a criminal offense in Italy. But seeing as the OP is being pursued by a civil debt company it is likely not. Or perhaps the Italian police are unaware of, or otherwise unable to use, the other more effective measures available.
Regardless it's not very likely that the OP is going to be compelled to pay in the same way as the thread I have linked above. If they were going to go down that route the debt collection company wouldn't be in the picture.

I only post rarely but I don't like the misinformation that there is no way to ever be made to pay for foreign traffic offense once you are back home. As I have said it is possible and it has happened. Just because it's rare doesn't mean it won't happen.


Where in the Government report is there any reference to recovery of motoring penalties? It appears more of a reference to property being seized as proceeds of crime.

Italian motoring offences are criminal offences as they are in other EU countries.

It is true that there are methods available for motoring penalties to be pursued through UK courts but apart from the link to the one you give are there any others?

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L.Saroyan
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 16:23
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QUOTE (baroudeur @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 11:57) *
Where in the Government report is there any reference to recovery of motoring penalties? It appears more of a reference to property being seized as proceeds of crime.

Here:
QUOTE
154. In its response to the Justice Select Committee's call for evidence the Government adds that the measure has a deterrent effect for people who incur a fine in the UK but are resident elsewhere in the EU. For example, visitors from another Member State may be less inclined to commit road traffic offences if they know it is likely that they will have to pay the resulting fine imposed for any offence.

If fines from road traffic offences couldn't recovered that paragraph wouldn't make any sense.
QUOTE ( @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 11:57) *
It is true that there are methods available for motoring penalties to be pursued through UK courts but apart from the link to the one you give are there any others?

Not that I could find when searching the forums. There are plenty of cases where motorists have been pursued but no others where that particular method has been used. And I can't remember any other cases where a motorist has been compelled to pay by a British court.

I think it would be fair to conclude that unless a case is escalated to the point where the European Mechanisms are used, there is no need to worry about court action in the UK.
With the exception of the case above, I think it would be sound advise to ignore all demands from debt collectors because they do not have any power to actually recovery anything in these cases. The European Procedures can only be used by the proper authority and all procedures must have been followed correctly for it to be successful. This includes informing the motorist in his native language, complying with various time limits etc.

In this case the OP states:
QUOTE (marcfastcars @ Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 19:17) *
I was caught driving in a pedestrian area in Rome in July 2016 and received a fine in 2017.

I don't know whether the Italian Authorities could actually enforce this now, but it seems doubtful. The fact that it has been taken on by a debt recovery company might indicate that the Italian Police no longer care or are out of time if they did.
So I would say that the OP can safely file anything else they receive about this unless it comes from a UK court.
It would be interesting to see the original fine sent by the Italian Police, if only to see if it complied with the requirements, if not they the OP is certainly in the clear.
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Churchmouse
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 21:09
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QUOTE (L.Saroyan @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 17:23) *
It would be interesting to see the original fine sent by the Italian Police, if only to see if it complied with the requirements, if not they the OP is certainly in the clear.

Indeed. I see that one of the grounds for refusal (Schedule 19) is this:

QUOTE
6 (2) The certificate indicates that the proceedings in which the decision was made provided for a hearing to take place and that the liable person did not attend but does not contain the statement described in—

(a) Article 7(2)(i)(i) (liable person summoned in person or by other means actually notified of scheduled date and place of hearing and informed that decision may be made in his or her absence),
[emphasis added].

I very much doubt foreign traffic offence summons are often served in person, so that leaves "actually notified". Perhaps this is why the Italian authorities use the Italian Post Office's "signed for" delivery method (which is sadly often ignored by UK posties)?

--Churchmouse
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