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Speeding... I dont think I had any other choice. sounds bull i know.
mmmlasagna
post Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 23:06
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This is the scenario I found myself on monday 2nd August 9.29am at Shottaton crossroads commuting the 200 miles to work on my motorcycle.

[i]I had been travelling at the back of a group of cars for several miles and proceeded to follow them through a LH corner speed was approximately 35 to 40mph, as I exited the corner the cars in front of me began to slow rapidly, I checked my mirrors but had a very limited view (approx 50m/164ft) due to the corner and the hedgerow lining it. I felt I was in a vulnerable position at the exit of the corner with the more than reasonable probability of another vehicle exiting the same corner unaware of a slow-moving potentially stationary motorcycle. In the last 20 years of commuting I have twice experienced being rear ended, once on the motorway the other in a situation not dissimilar to this, luckily both times whilst being in a car. (highway code stopping distances of fully attentive driver 40mph = 36meters, 50mph = 53meters, 60mph = 73meters)

Observing the road ahead to be clear as far as Shottaton Crossroads (approx. 300m ahead) and with the knowledge of the well sign posted and camera enforced speed limit of 40mph as I had travelled through this section twice weekly for many years, I proceeded to cross the broken white line and travel alongside the traffic at approximately 25 to 30mph aware of a sizable gap ahead in the now moving traffic.

After travelling approx 50m the traffics pace has started to increase along with my target gap, I also observe a large lorry at Shottaton crossroads (approx. 250m ahead). I believe I didn’t observe the lorry earlier due to trees lining the area it was emerging from.

A further 50m on with the truck closing ahead of me (approx. 200m ahead) and the cars beside me now having increased in speed almost matching my speed and the gap I had been fixated on in the traffic feeling like it was moving away from me, in the pressure of the moment I felt my only option was a controlled acceleration to reach the gap which I manoeuvred into. I had no idea of the speed I achieved as my primary concern and concentration at that moment was to make the safety of the large gap in the traffic with time to manoeuvre and maintain a reasonable gap to the car in front.
[/i]

the camera recorded me at 49 in a 40 and the image shows the truck and the gap.

I have had quite a lot of abuse on other forums from people suggesting im a lier or I should of done this or that from the comfort and time of their keyboards but in the pressure, I did what I felt I had to do

I was 6 months away from a clean license but now im looking at a TT99 ban and the lose of my job... theres been points this week I wish I just rode into the lorry

any advice greatly appreciated
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post Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 23:06
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cp8759
post Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 23:32
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This is simply hopeless and I cannot recommend you pursue this either as a defence or as mitigation. You've on a bike, so when the cars ahead of you started slowing down, you could have moved to the nearside (right up to the verge if need be) and if some idiot came full throttle round the corner, they'd hit the car ahead of you. Once you were overtaking, if there was insufficient space you could abort the overtake and apply the brakes, with the aim of moving into a gap behind you or even to move back behind the entire queue of cars (if they were speeding up that much, this really shouldn't have been a problem). If all else failed, you could have stopped on the offside verge, and the lorry would have had to slow down (or stop) to manoeuvre round you, and you could have then resumed your journey (Sure he might have been ****** off / shouted abuse / given you the finger, but you wouldn't have committed the offence).

Regardless of what you should or shouldn't have done, nothing you have said is a defence and if this is the case you put forward, you will be convicted of speeding. To put things into context, it would be a good defence to speeding if you were forced to do so because you were being pursued by a homicidal maniac with a gun / knife. The circumstances you put forward don't quite compare.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 07:04


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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mmmlasagna
post Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 06:59
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cp8759 thank you for your response and advice, although moving to the verge on the inside of blind corner will only reduce mine and an oncoming vehicles visability and is contrary to advice of the BMF and other motorcycling bodies.
Your other points are valid on paper and I wish in the pressure of the moment my reactions where anything other than what they where, but I cant change that now...

I appreciate "I made a mistake" is not an excuse to speed but damage limitation to my wife is my upmost concern.

My work is seasonal between July and March and 200 miles away in a rural location, no public transport, my wifes income will not be enough to support us and pay the mortgage.

If the court was to apply the ban between April and September it will have minimal effect on my wife.

Is defering the ban or a reduced ban a possability?

Im not expecting to avoid a TT99 as nobody directly relys on my license other than my self if you ignore the need for an income that my wife relys on.

Also could someone advise me on how long I would have to state my case in court?
And a rough ball park figure for a soliciter in a case like this?



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cp8759
post Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 07:19
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From what you say I assume you have between 9 and 11 points you've received within 3 years of the offence, please confirm this is the case.

Any ban would come into effect immediately, so there's no scope for a deferral. In the circumstances your best bet would be an exceptional hardship plea, losing your job would not normally qualify but if your wife risks losing the home she lives in this might persuade the magistrates to let you keep your licence (your wife is an innocent party in all this so hardship on her has significantly more weight). However in court you need to drop all this "I had no choice" talk and show contrition, accept it was a mistake / a moment of madness and highlight that this incident has really brought it home that you must comply with the speed limits, as failing to do so not only endangers you and other road users (in this instance that would be the car drivers and the lorry driver) but also exposes your wife to the loss of the matrimonial home through no fault of her own.

There's a few specialist motoring solicitors (don't use a generic criminal law one) who can help with this (a quick google search will bring up many), they seem to charge between 1.2 and 2k + vat. However there's a school of thought that says an exceptional hardship plea is more likely to work if it comes from the heart, rather than from a paid professional.

As for time, you will be given a reasonable opportunity to make your case, providing you don't start rambling, talking about irrelevant matters or repeating yourself, you won't be cut off half way through.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 07:22


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Jlc
post Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 07:32
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I presume you've done a speed awareness course in the last 3 years?


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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mmmlasagna
post Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 08:22
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Yes I have 9 points which were close to being removed and speed awareness course conducted 2 years ago

Appologies for any sesativity just still a little in shock and coming to terms with the situation.

I felt if I explained to the court that deferring the ban to between April and september would demonstrate my genuine concern to protect my wife from my actions instead of looking like I am using my wife to wriggle out of a ban

How long will it take to go to court?
I havent sent the NIP or license back yet as am attending a Police Advanced rider course next weekend to try and understand what the official correct course of action should of been and might need to show my license.

Is it always 6 months from the day of court or does the court have ability reduce length of ban?

Thanks


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The Rookie
post Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 08:25
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It’s unlikley the case will get to court for circa 6 miles months.

Having 9 points on your licence isn’t an issue (they stay on for four years), it’s having accrued 9 or more in the three years leading up to this offence date.

You also have the possibility of entering an exceptional hardship plea whic, if accepted, will reduce your ban, potentially to zero.


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cp8759
post Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 08:32
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QUOTE (mmmlasagna @ Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 09:22) *
Yes I have 9 points which were close to being removed and speed awareness course conducted 2 years ago

There's a difference between points being on your licence, and points being "active" for totting purposes. Points that have been on your licence for more than 3 years, but less than four, will still appear on your licence, but they don't count for the purposes of a totting ban.

So, how old are the 9 points?


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Jlc
post Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 08:53
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QUOTE (mmmlasagna @ Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 09:22) *
How long will it take to go to court?

They have 6 months to prosecute - annoyingly they often seem to take most of that time to do so. The actual hearing could be around 6-7 months time from now.

QUOTE (mmmlasagna @ Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 09:22) *
Is it always 6 months from the day of court or does the court have ability reduce length of ban?

The ban is immediate at the hearing - you can't drive home. The exceptional hardship plea can reduce the ban, potentially to none. Their decision will be based purely on the plea entered at that time.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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mmmlasagna
post Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 08:58
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The points are active, 9 within the last 3 years.

So there is a "possability" I might not get a hearing till Feb 19?

If/when it comes up earlier are there any legitimate methods to get the court case defered to a later date?

Will I have the oppertunity to present evidence of my financial situation?

Thank you so much for the straight and logical responses, it was the slap around the face Ive needed to start deeling with this properly.
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Jlc
post Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 09:04
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QUOTE (mmmlasagna @ Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 09:58) *
The points are active, 9 within the last 3 years.

It's based upon the date of the offence (and not conviction) - just to be sure...

QUOTE (mmmlasagna @ Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 09:58) *
So there is a "possability" I might not get a hearing till Feb 19?
If/when it comes up earlier are there any legitimate methods to get the court case defered to a later date?

Yup, likely to be in 2019. Deferring won't happen unless you have something convincing for the court to delay for.

QUOTE (mmmlasagna @ Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 09:58) *
Will I have the oppertunity to present evidence of my financial situation?

If that's relevant to the EH plea, of course. The plea stands a better chance concentrating on the impact on others.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Logician
post Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 10:18
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Yes, that is not going to fly as a defence to speeding however much it felt the right thing to do at the time, so do not attempt it. You did a course two years ago, but the crucial thing is the date of the offence that related to, if by chance that was more than three years prior to this latest incident, you might be offered a course.

The court simply does not have any power to defer the date of disqualification, it has to be immediate. So the only way to defer it is to defer the date of the hearing, wait until you get a date and then ask for it to be put back a bit. The best use for a solicitor, who does need to be a motoring specialist, is to assist in preparing an exceptional hardship case that you present yourself, although we can give you good advice here. Your financial situation is only of relevance in relation to whether there is a real risk your wife might lose her home as a result of your disqualification.

You need to think of all the possible alternatives to you commuting 200 miles daily by road, either to consider adopting them or giving the court reasons why you cannot adopt them. One is clearly changing your job, because 200 miles is one heck of a commute anyway. Others might be to go by rail if that is feasible or to stay in a B&B near your work during the week and get your wife to take you and bring you back, if you get the drift.


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notmeatloaf
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 12:17
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I think as has been suggested on here you need to check the date of the offences to be doubly sure if they are close to coming off.

Otherwise you will not necessarily lose your licence if it would cause exceptional hardship. You need to think about how others would be punished. If you are commuting 200 miles to work you are either mad or very difficult for your employer to replace. That would be a good start but you would likely need more as well.

There is a potential defence of duress of circumstance for speeding but avoiding a very very unlikely potential collision is not on the radar so it is best to forget about it in this context at least


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Mayhem007
post Sun, 12 Aug 2018 - 11:18
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QUOTE (mmmlasagna @ Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 08:22) *
I havent sent the NIP or license back yet as am attending a Police Advanced rider course next weekend to try and understand what the official correct course of action should of been and might need to show my license.


Are you sure it is a Police advanced rider course as appose to a Police bike safe course.
You will get very little information from the police other than what people have already stated on this thread. They simply won't entertain the idea of commenting on individual cases, as they have limited time in the classroom to answer peoples questions on matters of this nature.
However, you need to send the NIP back as soon as possible, which is not an indication of guilt.


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The Rookie
post Sun, 12 Aug 2018 - 13:11
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I’m sure it doesn’t say anything about sending the licence back with the S172 response (same piece of paper as the NIP).


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
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