PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Rules on fines from Foreign countries., EU Cross-Border Enforcement Directive Question
helicopterman
post Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 12:57
Post #1


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Member No.: 13,754



Until earlier I did not know of the EU Cross-Border Enforcement Directive.

Under the EU Cross-Border Enforcement Directive, the DVLA have very kindly given my details to another EU member state who has sent me a letter. The fine is small, but I am a bit worried as this was a road trip in a fast car and we were pressing on a bit. The offence in question occurred on day 2 of a 14 day trip . I fear many more, and much larger fines may be forthcoming. :-O

For this fine particular the issue date of the paperwork is 15 days after the offence, and it has taken 18 days to arrive. So maybe I can point this out and get the matter quashed. I believe a UK NIP is unenforceable unless issued within 14 days, so how does this stand in European countries - Does anyone know if this is only EU member states?

Also does the EU Cross-Border Enforcement Directive include Switzerland?

Thanks

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 9)
Advertisement
post Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 12:57
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
Jlc
post Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 13:00
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,143
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



This recent thread is worth a read.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Logician
post Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 13:32
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11,545
Joined: 28 Mar 2010
Member No.: 36,528



I do not see any reason why the UK 14 day rule should be replicated in any other country, even if it was the fact that your details had to be obtained from another country would have provided an exception to the general rule under UK law in all probability

Why do you not know if you passed other cameras, are Swiss cameras concealed or unrecognisable?


--------------------



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 14:08
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5,042
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (helicopterman @ Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 13:57) *
Also does the EU Cross-Border Enforcement Directive include Switzerland?

No, Switzerland isn't a member of the EU or even the EEA for that matter.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
helicopterman
post Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 15:45
Post #5


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Member No.: 13,754



QUOTE (Logician @ Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 14:32) *
I do not see any reason why the UK 14 day rule should be replicated in any other country, even if it was the fact that your details had to be obtained from another country would have provided an exception to the general rule under UK law in all probability

Why do you not know if you passed other cameras, are Swiss cameras concealed or unrecognisable?



Most probably. We were on a 2400 mile road trip, that was all about the driving!


QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 14:00) *
This recent thread is worth a read.



Yes, absolutely made my day that. :-(
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 18:58
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5,042
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (Logician @ Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 14:32) *
I do not see any reason why the UK 14 day rule should be replicated in any other country, even if it was the fact that your details had to be obtained from another country would have provided an exception to the general rule under UK law in all probability

Why do you not know if you passed other cameras, are Swiss cameras concealed or unrecognisable?

I've seen them go off, at least some of them have orange lights at the side of the road that flash to tell you you've been caught.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
baroudeur
post Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 15:53
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 416
Joined: 24 Sep 2014
Member No.: 73,212



QUOTE (helicopterman @ Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 13:57) *
Also does the EU Cross-Border Enforcement Directive include Switzerland?

Thanks


No, but there is no reason why Switzerland, or other countries, cannot apply to DVLA for the registered keeper details.

The CBE is an agreement of countries within the EU to do so on formal grounds but recovery of outstanding penalties is not part of the CBE agreement.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 20:03
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 5,042
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (baroudeur @ Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 16:53) *
QUOTE (helicopterman @ Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 13:57) *
Also does the EU Cross-Border Enforcement Directive include Switzerland?

Thanks


No, but there is no reason why Switzerland, or other countries, cannot apply to DVLA for the registered keeper details.

The CBE is an agreement of countries within the EU to do so on formal grounds but recovery of outstanding penalties is not part of the CBE agreement.

There is an EU council decision that provides for cross-border recovery of traffic fines, but it's only for EU member states.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
baroudeur
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 10:39
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 416
Joined: 24 Sep 2014
Member No.: 73,212



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 21:03) *
QUOTE (baroudeur @ Fri, 10 Aug 2018 - 16:53) *
QUOTE (helicopterman @ Thu, 9 Aug 2018 - 13:57) *
Also does the EU Cross-Border Enforcement Directive include Switzerland?

Thanks


No, but there is no reason why Switzerland, or other countries, cannot apply to DVLA for the registered keeper details.

The CBE is an agreement of countries within the EU to do so on formal grounds but recovery of outstanding penalties is not part of the CBE agreement.

There is an EU council decision that provides for cross-border recovery of traffic fines, but it's only for EU member states.



That is correct but it relates to all financial transactions not just traffic offence fines. The UK does not take part. The relative part about recovering traffic penalties is here

EU cross border fines
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
L.Saroyan
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 14:23
Post #10


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 13 Jul 2018
Member No.: 98,867



QUOTE (baroudeur @ Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 11:39) *
That is correct but it relates to all financial transactions not just traffic offence fines. The UK does not take part. The relative part about recovering traffic penalties is here
EU cross border fines

What exactly makes you think that the UK doesn't take part in that?

The Council Framework Decision 2005/214/JHA was transposed into UK law. This is the relevant section in force. If we were no longer taking part then all of this would have been repealed.
It doesn't just exist on paper, it has been used, if only rarely.

An extract from the Common European Scrutiny Committee discussing what the government will rejoin/continue to participate in and mentioning the amount of fines collected.
QUOTE (European Scrutiny Committee)
(59) Council Framework Decision 2005/214/JHA of 24 February 2005 on the application of the principle of mutual recognition to financial penalties
OUTLINE OF INSTRUMENT
151. This Framework Decision ensures that offenders are not able to escape justice simply because they do not live in the Member State where they offend. It requires Member States to collect financial penalties (of over 70) transferred by other Member States, as they would a domestic financial penalty. The enforcing Member State that collects the financial penalty can keep it (but compensation order monies must be remitted back to the victim). The money collected goes to the Consolidated Fund and the Ministry of Justice receives a proportion of this back under the Fines Incentive Scheme.

TRANSPOSITION INTO NATIONAL LAW
152. The Framework Decision was implemented into England, Wales and Northern Ireland law in 2009, through the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008. There was a minor amendment made through the Criminal Procedure Rules 2011. In Scotland the Framework Decision was implemented by the Mutual Recognition of Criminal Financial Penalties in the European Union (Scotland) Order (SSI 2009/342).

THE GOVERNMENT'S VIEW
153. Between June 2010 and September 2012, England and Wales received 393 cases from other Member States, with a total value of just over £90,000 and an average value of approximately £240 per penalty. There were 126 outgoing penalties from England and Wales to other Member States between December 2010 and October 2012. The total value of the outgoing penalties in this period was approximately £50,000, with an average value of approximately £400 per penalty.

There is even a thread on this forum where the OP was taken to court in England and compelled to pay for a traffic offense committed in Germany.

One might get the impression from the above thread that the OP's Article 6 rights were breached. Fortunately since then there has been (2014) an amendment (Sch. 19. Pt. 1 Para. 6) which should prevent what happened to him occurring now.

So, if you have a fine from Switzerland, as they are not a member state, they cannot use the mechanism described above. But if the fine is from a member state then don't make the mistake of the OP in the thread I linked. It is quite possible for EU fines to be enforced here, but you must have been informed in English first of you will have a solid defense. What happens after March 2019 however...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Wednesday, 24th October 2018 - 03:57
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.