PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

61mph in 50mph limit, M25 - Mistaken identity?
michael8626
post Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 21:46
Post #1


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 6 Aug 2018
Member No.: 99,267



Hi,

I received a NIP forty four days after the alleged offence. My car is leased. I wrote a letter asking for them to cancel it (14 days) Surrey Police state the NIP was sent out in accordance with the law. I presume this to be correct?

I was travelling on the M25 at 0.50 am back in May. My speed limiter was set to 60mph due to multiple 60mph signs appearing on the gantries.

Travelling under a certain gantry I saw a flash from behind as a camera activated. I vividly remember a vehicle overtaking me, travelling in the outside lane to my right, a Ford Galaxy taxi, marked Addison Lee. As the vehicle passed me its brake lights were on and I thought that was the vehicle that had triggered the camera. In the evidence section on the Surrey Police website, this vehicle is clearly visible in the pictures and you can see the high level brake light is illuminated.

Is it possible I have received a NIP for this vehicle, have we both activated cameras? Is it possible for me to find this out? Will Surrey Police tell me, can I use Freedom of Information?

I am adamant I was travelling in accordance with the speed limit. Surrey Police have stated I triggered a camera in a 50mph limit. I dispute this.

Are they legally obliged to produce clear photographic evidence of my vehicle travelling under a gantry that states 50mph? Picture 3 on their evidence systems looks vaguely like a gantry but it is too dark and blurred to be decipherable?

Can I also ask Highways to supply me with all temporary speed limits in operation on the M25 at the time of the alleged offence? Again if they refuse, can you use Freedom of Information?

Thank you all in advance.

Michael
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
3 Pages V   1 2 3 >  
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 21:46
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
NewJudge
post Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 21:59
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,562
Joined: 29 Oct 2008
Member No.: 23,623



QUOTE (michael8626 @ Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 22:46) *
Are they legally obliged to produce clear photographic evidence of my vehicle travelling under a gantry that states 50mph? Picture 3 on their evidence systems looks vaguely like a gantry but it is too dark and blurred to be decipherable?

They are not obliged to provide you with anything unless and until you take the matter to court. By that time the opportunity to accept a Speed Awareness Course or a Fixed Penalty will have gone.

If you do go to court they will produce evidence to show that your speed was detected in the approved manner using approved equipment. If you dispute this the onus shifts to you to show that one or other of those contentions cannot be correct.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 22:07
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,077
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



Only the 1st NIP has the 14 day requirement. Regardless, the driver must be nominated.

Do you know if that section is HADECS2 or 3? Either way the lane is identified.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
michael8626
post Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 22:13
Post #4


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 6 Aug 2018
Member No.: 99,267



QUOTE (NewJudge @ Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 22:59) *
QUOTE (michael8626 @ Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 22:46) *
Are they legally obliged to produce clear photographic evidence of my vehicle travelling under a gantry that states 50mph? Picture 3 on their evidence systems looks vaguely like a gantry but it is too dark and blurred to be decipherable?

They are not obliged to provide you with anything unless and until you take the matter to court. By that time the opportunity to accept a Speed Awareness Course or a Fixed Penalty will have gone.

If you do go to court they will produce evidence to show that your speed was detected in the approved manner using approved equipment. If you dispute this the onus shifts to you to show that one or other of those contentions cannot be correct.


Thanks. In court would they have to produce clear photographic evidence of my vehicle passing under a gantry sign that states 50mph?

QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 23:07) *
Only the 1st NIP has the 14 day requirement. Regardless, the driver must be nominated.

Do you know if that section is HADECS2 or 3? Either way the lane is identified.


I am unsure if that section is 2 or 3, I will find out. How can I find out if we both triggered the camera? Is that possible?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 22:16
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,077
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



HADECS3 has an auxiliary shot of the limit. HADECS2 uses a log of displayed limits.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
michael8626
post Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 22:54
Post #6


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 6 Aug 2018
Member No.: 99,267



QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 6 Aug 2018 - 23:16) *
HADECS3 has an auxiliary shot of the limit. HADECS2 uses a log of displayed limits.



M25 Junction 15 to 16, Iver

REDFLEX HADECS 3
Attached Image


Picture 3, which I presume is the 'external aspect verification view' is just a dark grey blur? Should this clearly show my vehicle going under the gantry?

Can I ask Surrey Police for a clearer image or do you think this is all they have?

(Apologies for the bad picture my end, a photograph of a computer screen of a very bad picture from Surrey Police.)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Logician
post Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 01:09
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11,536
Joined: 28 Mar 2010
Member No.: 36,528



They obviously have a clear enough picture to be able to identify your vehicle, that is all that is required. Can you make out if it is you between the two converging lines?


--------------------



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kernow2015
post Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 05:29
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 190
Joined: 9 Mar 2015
Member No.: 76,209



The picture says lane 2 - can you remember how many lanes there were? You say the other vehicle overtook you in the outside lane.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
michael8626
post Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 07:39
Post #9


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 6 Aug 2018
Member No.: 99,267



Yes, I was in lane 2, the vehicle overtaking me was in lane 3, how can I find out if that vehicle also triggered the camera?

I am not disputing that my vehicle appears in lane 2 in the pictures.

I was driving in accordance with numerous 60mph limits in place on that road, at that time.

I want to see evidence of my car passing under a gantry that’s indicates 50mph limit?

Should ‘picture 3’ the larger picture I posted, show this?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 07:47
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,077
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



QUOTE (michael8626 @ Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 08:39) *
I want to see evidence of my car passing under a gantry that’s indicates 50mph limit?

Should ‘picture 3’ the larger picture I posted, show this?

The auxiliary camera should show the 50mph displayed.

You'll have to reject any course or fixed penalty and opt for court should you want better pictures I suspect. But phone them and ask/check.

Notwithstanding you were still speeding even in a 60.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
michael8626
post Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 08:00
Post #11


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 6 Aug 2018
Member No.: 99,267



QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 08:47) *
QUOTE (michael8626 @ Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 08:39) *
I want to see evidence of my car passing under a gantry that’s indicates 50mph limit?

Should ‘picture 3’ the larger picture I posted, show this?

The auxiliary camera should show the 50mph displayed.

You'll have to reject any course or fixed penalty and opt for court should you want better pictures I suspect. But phone them and ask/check.

Notwithstanding you were still speeding even in a 60.


Many thanks for that. Should the auxiliary camera show my vehicle along with the gantry?

Would highways supply me with limits in place that day?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 08:43
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 39,683
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



QUOTE (michael8626 @ Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 09:00) *
Many thanks for that. Should the auxiliary camera show my vehicle along with the gantry?

Yes (and may do with the right filter) but doesn't HAVE to AIUI.

QUOTE (michael8626 @ Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 09:00) *
Would highways supply me with limits in place that day?

Yes, under an FOI, but you may not get that before you provide drivers details (not that you would have an excuse not to anyway), but probably before you have to accept whatever the proposed 'punishment' (likely to be an awareness course - the specific one for Variable speed limits).


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Logician
post Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 09:21
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11,536
Joined: 28 Mar 2010
Member No.: 36,528



We are assured that interlocks on the system mean that the cameras cannot enforce a limit other than the one displayed, although I understand why you would like that confirmed. If they say the speed of 61 relates to a vehicle in lane 2 and you were in lane 2 with your speed limiter set to 60mph, the Addison Lee vehicle in lane 3 will not have generated this action and you were speeding, if you accept the limit was set to 50mph.


--------------------



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 09:32
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,077
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



My guess would be the sign in question was displaying 50 - at a quick glance they don't look too dissimilar to a 60.

However, I understand the reasoning to see the 'evidence' before holding one's hands up...

Going to court always has an element of risk in it. Even if the auxiliary camera cannot clearly show the 50 displayed there's still the timestamped gantry log which was always sufficient for HADECS2.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
michael8626
post Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 10:04
Post #15


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 6 Aug 2018
Member No.: 99,267



Thanks everyone.

I was the driver, I have informed Surrey Police of this.

I want them to provide me with a picture of my vehicle passing under the gantry with 50mph illuminated.

I have a clean license and they have offered me a speed awareness course.

You may think I’m mad but until they can produce a clear image of my vehicle passing under thet gantry I would like my day in court.

I will ask via FOI for all the variable limits in place on that stretch of road. It was almost 1am, dry and clear, no roadworks, I would like to know via FOI why the variable limits were in place at that time of day.

Also a FOI as to if the Addison Lee taxi also triggered the camera.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nosferatu1001
post Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 10:07
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 17,987
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Member No.: 15,642



My understanding is that they do not have to provide that before court, and even in court this is not necessary to secure a conviction.

Youre throwing away a speed awareness course...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 10:28
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,077
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



QUOTE (michael8626 @ Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 11:04) *
Also a FOI as to if the Addison Lee taxi also triggered the camera.

Not a chance of getting that and it's irrelevant to your allegation. (Other than your original assertion that you are being pursued for their speed - but you don't deny the alleged speed, just the displayed limit AIUI)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 10:39


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Logician
post Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 10:28
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 11,536
Joined: 28 Mar 2010
Member No.: 36,528



Yes you are mad, they are unlikely to give you anything more before court. In court they will produce sufficient evidence in one form or another. You should get from the Highways Agency details of the limits, but the reason for the limits or lack of any reason will not be regarded as at all relevant by the court. You will not I think get any information from the police about action taken against another driver.

Do you appreciate that when you are found guilty in court apart from the 3 points, the fine will be 50% of your net weekly income, the surcharge will be 10% of that, minimum £30, and the guideline for costs in such a case is £620?


--------------------



Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Jlc
post Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 10:38
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,077
Joined: 25 Aug 2011
From: With Mickey
Member No.: 49,223



QUOTE (michael8626 @ Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 11:04) *
You may think I’m mad but until they can produce a clear image of my vehicle passing under thet gantry I would like my day in court.

No, not mad. The fixed penalty (and course) offer system is for those that fully accept their 'guilt' and/or want to avoid a prosecution. Should you not want to accept the kind offer (which doesn't have to provide irrefutable evidence) then you are entitled to your day in court.

If they show you the 'clear' photo then you can elect to plead guilty but the fixed penalty offer is gone and you will be sentenced under Magistrate's guidelines with an income related fine (discounted by 33% for a guilty plea), costs (£85) and surcharge (10% of the fine, min £30).

If you maintain a not guilty plea then the stakes go up significantly. You may still be found guilty even without the photo you desire. The prosecution are likely to ask for costs exceeding £600.

QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 11:28) *
Yes you are mad

rolleyes.gif

This post has been edited by Jlc: Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 10:41


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
michael8626
post Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 11:15
Post #20


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8
Joined: 6 Aug 2018
Member No.: 99,267



I was made redundant earlier this year after 24 years in the same job and I am currently out of work. I receive job seekers allowance of £71 per week. The court is welcome to a share of that.

I think the heat has affected me. I want my day in court!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Tuesday, 16th October 2018 - 04:40
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.