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URN not recognised
Alphaman101
post Mon, 23 Jul 2018 - 22:35
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"The Unique Reference Number (URN) isn't valid. Enter the number exactly as it appears on page 1 of the notice"

Why is this happening? I tried entering it into the make a plea site as soon as I received it- it didn't work then so I thought it was because I was trying it too early and it wasn't quite in the system yet so wasn't being recognised. It's a week since I received it and the court date is just over a week away and it's still not working... no idea why...

I've tried varying including the forward slashes, not typing them in but neither works. All the other characters are definitely correct.

The URN is of the following format where # represents a number and * represents a letter:

##/**/#######/##
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post Mon, 23 Jul 2018 - 22:35
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BaggieBoy
post Mon, 23 Jul 2018 - 22:44
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You will need to give more info, what is this "notice" relating to?
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Alphaman101
post Mon, 23 Jul 2018 - 22:57
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At the top it says:
Written charge(s)
S9 statements enclosed.


Driving without due care and attention
Driving on a footpath.

(this was on motorbike)

I believe I am not guilty of either and I will make two future threads explaining exactly what happened and for advice on how to help me win.

This post has been edited by Alphaman101: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 - 22:57
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BaggieBoy
post Mon, 23 Jul 2018 - 23:10
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QUOTE (Alphaman101 @ Mon, 23 Jul 2018 - 23:57) *
At the top it says:
Written charge(s)
S9 statements enclosed.


Driving without due care and attention
Driving on a footpath.

(this was on motorbike)

I believe I am not guilty of either and I will make two future threads explaining exactly what happened and for advice on how to help me win.

Better you keep everything to a single thread, i.e. this one.
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southpaw82
post Mon, 23 Jul 2018 - 23:25
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QUOTE (Alphaman101 @ Mon, 23 Jul 2018 - 23:57) *
I believe I am not guilty of either and I will make two future threads explaining exactly what happened and for advice on how to help me win.

No you won’t.


--------------------


Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Alphaman101
post Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 00:25
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QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 00:10)
Better you keep everything to a single thread, i.e. this one.


Ok one thread then- how has the extra information I've given helped to potentially solve my URN issue?
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Logician
post Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 01:07
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Better phone the court office, it may be you have been given a wrong number


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Alphaman101
post Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 07:07
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QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 02:07) *
Better phone the court office, it may be you have been given a wrong number


Where do I find the number of the court office?
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peterguk
post Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 07:57
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QUOTE (Alphaman101 @ Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 08:07) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 02:07) *
Better phone the court office, it may be you have been given a wrong number


Where do I find the number of the court office?


Presumably the court name is mentioned on the paperwork? When you have that try Google


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gilan02
post Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 08:28
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It would probably be better to explain what happened and what your defence is before you enter your plea.
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 08:30
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Indeed
Knowing who has accused you, and what likely evidence they have, would be of use.
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Alphaman101
post Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 14:07
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The "offences" took place on Birmingham Bull Street. I was coming from corporation street from the tram lines- the lights turned green and I made a very very sharp right turn on the motorbike. I got off the motorbike- wheeled it to the contraflow bicycle lane and with the engine off I got on and rolled downhill in the contraflow bicycle lane down Bull Street which is a one way street where buses come in the opposite direction to where I was going. Before I did this manoeuvre there were two policemen watching. We made eye contact and I still did it anyway because I do not believe I was committing an offence. Bull Street is a downhill if you look on street view.
I do this all the time when I am doing courier work down that street.
As usual the police officers statements go on about how many thousands could have sadly died because of my heinous actions. Driving without due care and attention??? How could no attention haveI mbeen paid if I made note of the fact that it was a one way. Physically wheeled it around. And then turned the engine off to go downhill?
I did not contravene a no entry sign and there strictly speaking were actually no signs saying it was a one way- even though I will admit happily in court I knew it was a one way because I courier here a lot and I didn't think what I was doing was wrong.

When I got to the KFC on Bull Street I turned the engine on, I mounted the kerb travelled 10metres at walking pace to a private area off the pavement.
right in front of the KFC entrance. That's 10 metres so less than 15 yards.
Isn't it legal to ride a motorbike on a pavement to a place of parking as long as it's less than 15 yards?

The two police followed me in and ushered me out to speak to me about what they saw and now we are here.

Pictures:
1) corporation street tramlines where I came from and then made sharp right
2) 10m to kfc entrance from the kerb
3) picture to show that bull street is a downhill.
4) overhead view to show contraflow bicycle lane.
5) 75metres was how far I travelled downhill
6) KFC entrance- grey tiles off the public footpath was where I parked
7) the other side of corporation street with no tram lines- not the direction i came from
8) the officers were by costcutter next to the Nations skin clinic which is classed as on upper bullstreet (it's further up can't quite see it in the pic)

This post has been edited by Alphaman101: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 14:18
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AntonyMMM
post Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 14:31
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Are you hoping to suggest that riding a motorbike by freewheeling downhill with the engine off doesn't mean you were driving ?
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Alphaman101
post Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 14:42
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QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 15:31) *
Are you hoping to suggest that riding a motorbike by freewheeling downhill with the engine off doesn't mean you were driving ?


Yes pretty much- and the fact that I got off the motorbike wheeled it to the side on the contraflow bicycle lane I thought would have shown I was not being reckless with it. I don't know exactly what is legal and what is not. That is why I am here. For help and explanations

This post has been edited by Alphaman101: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 14:45
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The Rookie
post Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 14:59
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QUOTE (Alphaman101 @ Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 15:42) *
QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 15:31) *
Are you hoping to suggest that riding a motorbike by freewheeling downhill with the engine off doesn't mean you were driving ?


Yes pretty much- and the fact that I got off the motorbike wheeled it to the side on the contraflow bicycle lane I thought would have shown I was not being reckless with it.

May get you off the careless (MAY) but not the driving on the pavement, I'd strongly suggest pleading guilty to that one at least, will save 1/3 on the fine and they may decide to drop the careless as they have a conviction.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 15:25


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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Alphaman101
post Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 15:24
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 15:59) *
QUOTE (Alphaman101 @ Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 15:42) *
QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 15:31) *
Are you hoping to suggest that riding a motorbike by freewheeling downhill with the engine off doesn't mean you were driving ?


Yes pretty much- and the fact that I got off the motorbike wheeled it to the side on the contraflow bicycle lane I thought would have shown I was not being reckless with it.

May get you off the careless (MAY) but the driving on the pavement, I'd strongly suggest pleading guilty to that one at least, will save 1/3 on the fine and they may decide to drop the careless as they have a conviction.


But look at this article by White Dalton Motorcycle Solicitors:

They've officially removed it which is scaring me into thinking the law (they don't say what law exactly) that made it legal to ride on a pavement for less than 15 yards to get to a place of parking is now no longer a law.

You can access the article it's still on google cache:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/sear...=clnk&gl=uk

In case the link disappears this is what the article says:

"I recently saw a video on social media of a scooterist riding along a pavement, and I was told that the rider wasn’t prosecuted. Is It ever actually legal to ride on the pavement? There must be some grey areas.

Answer

In the case you mention, for reasons which are not clear the prosecution for dangerous driving was abandoned. But It poses the question of when It’s OK to ride a powered two-wheeler on a pavement and, more broadly, where can a motorcycle be ridden?

The law on riding on pavements is clear: It is Illegal, with one exception. You may ride (or drive) a motor vehicle on the pavement for a maximum of 15 yards to get to a place of parking. The law does not actually define “a place of lawful parking”, simply that it is a place where you can park – but If you leave your motorcycle parked on the pavement you are committing another offence of obstruction of the highway. Either way, you’re nicked.

The difference is that the police will take an interest In you riding on the pavement, whereas they will not be particularly interested in you parking on the pavement unless you are creating an active obstruction to the highway, and even then they are unlikely to be especially Interested. The law is contained in Section 34 of the Road Traffic Act 1984.

The same rules apply if you ride on a bridleway, public footpath or common land – again, these are all areas upon which motorised traffic does not usually pass.

A bridleway, however, is often on private land. This means the landowner can use his or her bike, quad or tractor on it, but you cannot ride your bike on it. So do not take the presence of motorised vehicles on a bridleway or a footpath as your own personal right to ride.

Can you push your bike on the pavement? Yes, but you need to be pushing it, not straddling and paddling it. If you straddle and paddle, the law has determined (In the way that only judges can) that you have ‘control’ of the machine and are therefore ‘riding’ it – but if you are to one side of it and pushing It you are not in control. So if you have to move an uninsured or otherwise non-street legal bike, push it but do not straddle It.

This is very old English common law, and may not be so Interpreted following a European Court of Justice case which said, and I summarise, that if you are using a vehicle In any other place to which the public have access, and it causes harm, then the vehicle must be Insured. However, so long as your journey is less than 15 yards or, you are pushing your motorcycle along, you will not be committing an offence.

Riding along the pavement with anything other than ostentatious care being displayed would carry the more serious charge of dangerous riding, because no reasonably careful driver or rider would place a motorised vehicle on a pavement, and the act is deliberate. People who would lawfully be using the pavement would be likely to be endangered merely by the presence of a motorised vehicle moving with any speed differential, as it would be wholly unexpected.

The law is clear: the more unusual your action, the higher your duty of care rises. So if you have an extraordinary reason to ride more than 15 yards on the pavement and pushing is not a viable option, it would take very little to trip it into dangerous riding. Counter Intuitively, the lesser charges of driving without due care and attention or careless and inconsiderate driving would not be alternative offences – the offence is not a momentary lapse of concentration (it cannot be with a deliberate act), and if you were riding inconsiderately on the pavement it would be an obvious endangerment to people who might also be using it.

So unless your bike has training wheels, is modelled on a superhero’s and you are under the age of seven, it’s probably best to limit your pavement riding to less than 15 yards – and only to park."

Why should I plead guilty to anything if it's lawful! The way you've just said that makes the system sound like such a bloodsucker of the working man and you are so right. "so they can get a conviction". Sad.
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southpaw82
post Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 15:46
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You mean this? Section 34(3) of the Roaf Traffic Act 1988

QUOTE
It is not an offence under this section to drive a mechanically propelled vehicle on any land within fifteen yards of a road, being a road on which a motor vehicle may lawfully be driven, for the purpose only of parking the vehicle on that land.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Jlc
post Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 15:52
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Agreed, it needs to be established whether an offence occurred or not.

The careless charge has an element of subjectivity about it - the prosecution have to show that your driving (riding) 'fell below that of a competent and careful driver'.

If the lesser charge did occur then pleading guilty to it is sensible anyway and as noted may see them (or be swayed to) drop the more serious charge, especially if the chances of conviction are not particularly high. The point being that the prosecution have the 'conviction' of at least one of the offences.

Obviously, if neither actually occurred then not guilty all the way.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 15:53


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Alphaman101
post Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 16:40
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Fantastic Southpaw! Thank you - so I am free of one charge.

The important thing and the one I am scared of is the one way.

If the engine is off and it is simply rolling in correct direction of the bicycle lane- strictly speaking am I committing a traffic offence or not? I do not want to be at the mercy of a judge and hope they’re nice. Is it illegal or not strictly speaking? Why?
It is essentially a bicycle at this point is it not? They checked the brakes when they were looking for an excuse to seize it the desperados concluded they were fine. A rolling glorified bicycle with fully working brakes. I was in full control...
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notmeatloaf
post Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 17:17
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Of course it does not stop being a motorbike with the engine off. Otherwise you wouldn't be liable for scores of liabilities from parking tickets to speeding and mobile phone offences simply by turning off the engine. more pertinent question is were you still riding it. As alluded to in the article being in the saddle has put you in a difficult position.

This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 - 17:19


--------------------
My username is notmeatloaf because I'm not made of meat loaf. I hope that clarifies things.
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