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First time court attendance.
3lward
post Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 22:51
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Evening.

Had a NIP through today for doing 63 in a 30 it was at 7.50am on a 2 mile 2 laned straight on an industrial estate. I have no excuse for what I have done and I know I am going to get summoned to court.

I'm a bit apprehensive on what punishment to expect and what to say in court as I have never been in this position before. I've held a clean licence for almost 6 years now and I have no other criminal convictions, I also work in the motor trade as a parts specialist so my licence is quite important to my job role plus the fact I have just found out my wife is expecting which is another reason to want to keep my licence! Im obviously going to plead guilty to the charge and hope for the best but if anybody could advise one extremely anxious 26 year old I would be grateful. Thanks!
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post Wed, 7 Mar 2018 - 22:51
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 8 Mar 2018 - 21:09
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You’re not making a strong case for having your licence kept

You’re trying to steer them towards 6 points because of the long lasting effect it will have on you.
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3lward
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 10:41
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 8 Mar 2018 - 21:09) *
You’re not making a strong case for having your licence kept

You’re trying to steer them towards 6 points because of the long lasting effect it will have on you.


I haven't made a case yet. What I stated in the original post was MY reasons for wanting to keep my licence. I will be making mitigation statement this weekend in preparation along with a statement from my employer. If it doesn't work it doesn't work Its out of my control.
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 11:06
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That wasnt the suggestion from others
You do not mitigate here - that would suggest the offence has been lessened.

You plead guilty and state that you are truly sorry and known they have no choice but to give you 6 points, leaving you on 9 and with a certain knowledge of a 6 month ban in the next 3 years should you make another error.

Youre trying to steer them into 6 points being HARSHER than a ban, as theyre going to want to be harsh on you given the excess. DOes that strategy make sense now?
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3lward
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 11:44
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 11:06) *
That wasnt the suggestion from others
You do not mitigate here - that would suggest the offence has been lessened.

You plead guilty and state that you are truly sorry and known they have no choice but to give you 6 points, leaving you on 9 and with a certain knowledge of a 6 month ban in the next 3 years should you make another error.

Youre trying to steer them into 6 points being HARSHER than a ban, as theyre going to want to be harsh on you given the excess. DOes that strategy make sense now?


I have a clean licence.

And yes I understand what your trying to say. To be honest the ban would be more detrimental to me due to my wife being pregnant and having health problems leaving her unable to drive at times.

This post has been edited by 3lward: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 11:49
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 13:49
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We know that the ban would be worse for you
THe court doesnt.
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NewJudge
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 13:55
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QUOTE (3lward @ Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 11:44) *
To be honest the ban would be more detrimental to me due to my wife being pregnant and having health problems leaving her unable to drive at times.

Strictly speaking you have no right to argue any sort of "Exceptional Hardship" a ban might bring. (That is only available for "totting up" disqualifications). However the Magistrates (or District Judge) will listen to anything you have to say. You might, just might, be able to convince them to award six points instead of a ban if you mention these difficulties. However my earlier misgivings (that a ban is almost a certainty) remain.
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 14:39
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Hence two bites at the cherry? Pleading guilty to the SJPN at least means two sets of people will have to look at it, worst case.
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3lward
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 14:55
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 14:39) *
Hence two bites at the cherry? Pleading guilty to the SJPN at least means two sets of people will have to look at it, worst case.


That's what I'm thinking. I'm obviously going to plead guilty to the charge & to he honest I'm expecting a ban and I wouldn't expect anything less for such a stupid mistake, I just hope the judge will understand some of my circumstances and hope I make a good representation in court if it gets to that. Better dust off my suit!
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Jlc
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 15:28
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As an aside, congrats on the pregnancy.

In terms of timing these cases can often take quite a time to come to court. They have 6 months to commence a prosecution and are often 'left' until that time...

The court hearing may also be after that too - and remember the SJPN process also takes time. (It could be 8-9 months time before the ban comes into effect!)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 15:28


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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3lward
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 16:32
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 15:28) *
As an aside, congrats on the pregnancy.

In terms of timing these cases can often take quite a time to come to court. They have 6 months to commence a prosecution and are often 'left' until that time...

The court hearing may also be after that too - and remember the SJPN process also takes time. (It could be 8-9 months time before the ban comes into effect!)


Thanks!

To be honest the bigger picture Is that I'm expecting a child so the driving offence has taken a back seat which is good for my mental health as I to tend to get extremely worried about things like these and i know it's not going to get resolved overnight.
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notmeatloaf
post Fri, 9 Mar 2018 - 21:37
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I would just repeat that you need to focus on how much the six points will be a lesson to you, how hard it will affect you rather than talking down the offence. If you haven't been to a magistrates court before it's worth going to watch some traffic offences. It really is like a sausage factory for a guilty plea - you will likely be in, sentenced and out within a few minutes.

You don't have strong mitigating circumstances. Bearing in mind it is near impossible to mitigate down to less than either six points or a ban, and the fine is income-based, you need to apologise quickly and then make the most of your remaining couple of minutes to push home the "points will teach me a lesson" argument. Otherwise, if you don't mind me saying, that message will get lost in a sea of irrelevance.

I don't mean to be harsh but if you have never been to a court you may imagine it's like something out of a film, with well dressed people making eloquent points. Magistrates court is nothing like that.


--------------------
My username is notmeatloaf because I'm not made of meat loaf. I hope that clarifies things.
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3lward
post Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 12:48
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To be honest after thinking about it, the points will be more a punishment for me as I will then have to be careful for the next few years. Where as a ban will obviously punish me in the short term but then I will come out the other end with still a clean licence. Plus the fact that a ban will be punishing my immediate family including my pregnant wife and if it takes as long as people have stated she will have just given birth.

Bloody hell what a mess I'm so gutted.

This post has been edited by 3lward: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 16:34
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NewJudge
post Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 16:28
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QUOTE (3lward @ Sat, 10 Mar 2018 - 12:48) *
I will come out the other end with still a clean licence. Plus the fact that a ban will be punishing my immediate family including my pregnant wife and if it takes as long as people have stated she will have just given birth.


You won't have a "clean" licence. Although you will have no penalty points you will have an endorsement for an offence for which you were disqualified. This will have to be declared to insurers and, if appropriate, to your employers.

As I mentioned earlier, the question of "Hardship" to be visited on you or others is not, strictly speaking, a consideration where an immediate ban for a single offence is concerned.
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andy_foster
post Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 18:41
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So, to recap, your vehicle was caught [allegedly] speeding by a speed camera (either fixed or a camera van) and you received a NIP through the post, which states that the as yet unknown (to them) driver is alleged to have committed an offence, and a requirement to name the driver - failure to comply with which is a separate offence which carries 6 points (with an insurance unfriendly endorsement code of MS90), but would make it all but impossible to convict the driver for speeding?



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Millenial (noun): a person who is offended at being told "Suck it up, buttercup"
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3lward
post Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 19:40
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 18:41) *
So, to recap, your vehicle was caught [allegedly] speeding by a speed camera (either fixed or a camera van) and you received a NIP through the post, which states that the as yet unknown (to them) driver is alleged to have committed an offence, and a requirement to name the driver - failure to comply with which is a separate offence which carries 6 points (with an insurance unfriendly endorsement code of MS90), but would make it all but impossible to convict the driver for speeding?


I have filled the NIP out and sent it back to them, I was the driver at the time as I am the only driver of my vehicle. I'm not going to deny something I have been caught doing clear as day.
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peterguk
post Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 19:44
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QUOTE (3lward @ Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 19:40) *
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 18:41) *
So, to recap, your vehicle was caught [allegedly] speeding by a speed camera (either fixed or a camera van) and you received a NIP through the post, which states that the as yet unknown (to them) driver is alleged to have committed an offence, and a requirement to name the driver - failure to comply with which is a separate offence which carries 6 points (with an insurance unfriendly endorsement code of MS90), but would make it all but impossible to convict the driver for speeding?


I have filled the NIP out and sent it back to them, I was the driver at the time as I am the only driver of my vehicle. I'm not going to deny something I have been caught doing clear as day.



As you've replied, it's irrelephant now, but Andy was not suggesting you deny being the driver. He was simply stating that had you chosen tnot to reply to the NIP, you would have been charged with an offence unrelated to the speeding.


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3lward
post Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 20:09
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 19:44) *
QUOTE (3lward @ Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 19:40) *
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 18:41) *
So, to recap, your vehicle was caught [allegedly] speeding by a speed camera (either fixed or a camera van) and you received a NIP through the post, which states that the as yet unknown (to them) driver is alleged to have committed an offence, and a requirement to name the driver - failure to comply with which is a separate offence which carries 6 points (with an insurance unfriendly endorsement code of MS90), but would make it all but impossible to convict the driver for speeding?


I have filled the NIP out and sent it back to them, I was the driver at the time as I am the only driver of my vehicle. I'm not going to deny something I have been caught doing clear as day.



As you've replied, it's irrelephant now, but Andy was not suggesting you deny being the driver. He was simply stating that had you chosen tnot to reply to the NIP, you would have been charged with an offence unrelated to the speeding.


But a insurance killing offence code which could be possibly worse. Anyway I'm just playing a waiting game now. I will take what's coming on the chin and move on.
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notmeatloaf
post Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 20:44
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QUOTE (3lward @ Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 20:09) *
But a insurance killing offence code which could be possibly worse. Anyway I'm just playing a waiting game now. I will take what's coming on the chin and move on.

Everything is relative, if you have to take two months off work because you can't drive plus the increase in insurance from the ban then you're probably out of pocket.

But seeing as you don't seem sure which you want, six points, ban, or just luck of the draw it is very difficult to give meaningful advice.


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My username is notmeatloaf because I'm not made of meat loaf. I hope that clarifies things.
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3lward
post Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 19:08
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 20:44) *
QUOTE (3lward @ Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 20:09) *
But a insurance killing offence code which could be possibly worse. Anyway I'm just playing a waiting game now. I will take what's coming on the chin and move on.

Everything is relative, if you have to take two months off work because you can't drive plus the increase in insurance from the ban then you're probably out of pocket.

But seeing as you don't seem sure which you want, six points, ban, or just luck of the draw it is very difficult to give meaningful advice.


I'm not going to lose my job but certain parts of my job role will be difficult without a licence. My main concern is my pregnant wife and child to be & if it takes 8+ months to resolve then my wife will be full term and probably unable to drive and due to current health problems with blood pressure, I can see the GP advising against driving at the later stages of her pregnancy. That is my reason for needing to keep my licence.
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andy_foster
post Mon, 12 Mar 2018 - 20:35
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sun, 11 Mar 2018 - 20:44) *
Everything is relative, if you have to take two months off work because you can't drive plus the increase in insurance from the ban then you're probably out of pocket.

But seeing as you don't seem sure which you want, six points, ban, or just luck of the draw it is very difficult to give meaningful advice.


The OP had sought advice as to what to expect. He has been told what to expect. He has also been advised what would be likely to happen if he failed to name the driver. He has indicated that he intends to play it straight. It is perfectly lawful to explain how the law works and the consequences of certain actions or inactions. Trying to encourage him to commit an offence is not lawful and is not tolerated on this site. It seems to me that it could be argued either way that you were or were not encouraging him - but you are far closer to 'the line' than I would be minded to tread, and I would question your ability to assess exactly where the line is.

TL;DR - wind your neck in.


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Millenial (noun): a person who is offended at being told "Suck it up, buttercup"
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