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Speeding ticket from Switzerland
sg2015
post Tue, 2 Jan 2018 - 16:14
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I was caught speeding in Switzerland in July, had a form asking for the drivers details to my name & address (registered keeper) come through in November. I filled this in and a fine has been produced, arriving 27th Dec (happy Christmas!). The first letter had German and English, but the second letter only has German, so I've no idea what it says! Apart from the fine is fairly obvious (has a big TOTAL mark)

It's for 136kph in an 80kph, which is then reduced to 130kph due to adjustments. Fine is 2700CHF, approx £2050. No salary was given etc.

What are my options? TIA
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post Tue, 2 Jan 2018 - 16:14
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sg2015
post Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 12:04
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Here is the next letter...

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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 12:07
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A post on the pistonheads forum


QUOTE
Swiss authorities said:

Speed limits: 120 km/h on motorways, 80 km/h on normal roads and 50 km/h inside villages. Whilst driving "a wee bit too fast" is common on motorways people tend to stick pretty closely to the other two limits. Fines are hefty and traffic rules are strictly enforced.
Travel Warning

WARNING: If you get fined but not stopped (e.g. caught by a Speed Camera) the police will send you the fine even if you live abroad. In Switzerland, speeding is not a violation of a traffic code but a Legal Offence, if you fail to comply there is a good chance that an international rogatory will be issued and you have to go to court in your home country.

Also, starting from 2007, Switzerland banned all GPS appliances with built-in speed cameras databases as they are equiped with "Radar Detectors".

According to some GPS navigator producers, it is advised to remove the Swiss radar database while driving in the country as the police may give you a fine and impound your device even if is turned off and placed in the trunk of your vehicle!
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sg2015
post Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 12:11
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Looking at these pages that tell you the fines, it's CHF 120 a day, but a day from what?! the time it took them to send a letter?
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Irksome
post Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 15:00
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It does appear that there are some reports of Letters Rogatory being issued by the Swiss courts for minor speeding infractions ... I'm surprised they find it worth the hassle!
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cp8759
post Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 16:17
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QUOTE (Irksome @ Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 15:00) *
It does appear that there are some reports of Letters Rogatory being issued by the Swiss courts for minor speeding infractions ... I'm surprised they find it worth the hassle!

They can issue whatever they want, but whether the authorities in this country would agree that it would be proportionate to do anything is another matter.

Ultimately what are they going to do, ask the English courts to sanction an extradition for a simple speeding offence? Good luck with that!


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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baroudeur
post Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 16:25
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QUOTE (sg2015 @ Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 12:04) *
Here is the next letter...



That appears to refer to a two year probationary period for the CHF6000 and a CHF1500 penalty for non-payment within 30 days.

So, the 6000 fine is suspended, a penalty of 1500 imposed for non-payment within 30 days and 1200 added in fees.

If that is correct the CHF6000 could be collected if you offend again within the two year period if you have paid the 2700 - or 8700 if you haven't.

Perhaps Switzerland is off the itinerary in future?


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cp8759
post Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 16:35
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QUOTE (sg2015 @ Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 12:04) *
Here is the next letter...


From a rough Google translation it appears that you have been "convicted" of speeding, there is no mention of any right to appeal, no mention of any evidence, basically you've been found guilty by decree (Assuming there is nothing relevant on the back of the letter, which I'm guessing you haven't posted because it's blank). In my view this is a blatant violation of Article 6. I would just return it with a polite note stating you have no idea what it says, put the ball back in their court.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 16:36


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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baroudeur
post Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 17:29
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 16:35) *
QUOTE (sg2015 @ Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 12:04) *
Here is the next letter...


From a rough Google translation it appears that you have been "convicted" of speeding, there is no mention of any right to appeal, no mention of any evidence, basically you've been found guilty by decree (Assuming there is nothing relevant on the back of the letter, which I'm guessing you haven't posted because it's blank). In my view this is a blatant violation of Article 6. I would just return it with a polite note stating you have no idea what it says, put the ball back in their court.


It could be suggested that any 'rights' under Art 6 were forfeit when the original correspondence was ignored and, as it was multi-language including English, there is no excuse for not understanding what was involved.
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mazzer
post Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 17:39
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QUOTE (Irksome @ Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 15:00) *
It does appear that there are some reports of Letters Rogatory being issued by the Swiss courts for minor speeding infractions ... I'm surprised they find it worth the hassle!


Where are these reports?
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cp8759
post Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 17:56
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QUOTE (baroudeur @ Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 17:29) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 16:35) *
QUOTE (sg2015 @ Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 12:04) *
Here is the next letter...


From a rough Google translation it appears that you have been "convicted" of speeding, there is no mention of any right to appeal, no mention of any evidence, basically you've been found guilty by decree (Assuming there is nothing relevant on the back of the letter, which I'm guessing you haven't posted because it's blank). In my view this is a blatant violation of Article 6. I would just return it with a polite note stating you have no idea what it says, put the ball back in their court.


It could be suggested that any 'rights' under Art 6 were forfeit when the original correspondence was ignored and, as it was multi-language including English, there is no excuse for not understanding what was involved.

The OP has stated that duly filled in the form sent with the first letter and sent it back. Logically the second letter should give the option to pay or challenge / appeal / plead not guilty / whatever in order for the matter be heard by a fair and impartial tribunal established by law (with the right to challenge evidence and witnesses etc...), but no such options appears to exist. The options seem to be either pay a big fine on time, or don't and then you'll pay an even bigger fine for late payment.

Under the circumstances sending the letter back and simply asking for another one in English seems like perfectly reasonable conduct.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Irksome
post Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 23:19
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QUOTE (mazzer @ Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 17:39) *
QUOTE (Irksome @ Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 15:00) *
It does appear that there are some reports of Letters Rogatory being issued by the Swiss courts for minor speeding infractions ... I'm surprised they find it worth the hassle!


Where are these reports?


http://bfy.tw/Fsda
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Churchmouse
post Fri, 5 Jan 2018 - 00:28
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QUOTE (baroudeur @ Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 17:29) *
It could be suggested that any 'rights' under Art 6 were forfeit when the original correspondence was ignored and, as it was multi-language including English, there is no excuse for not understanding what was involved.
Are fundamental human rights often subject to "forfeiture"?

Internet wisdom, by the way, suggests that the applicable limitations period for speeding offences in Switzerland is a mere three years. (Might want to confirm that, OP.)

--Churchmouse
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baroudeur
post Fri, 5 Jan 2018 - 10:00
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 17:56) *
The OP has stated that duly filled in the form sent with the first letter and sent it back. Logically the second letter should give the option to pay or challenge / appeal / plead not guilty / whatever in order for the matter be heard by a fair and impartial tribunal established by law (with the right to challenge evidence and witnesses etc...), but no such options appears to exist. The options seem to be either pay a big fine on time, or don't and then you'll pay an even bigger fine for late payment.

Under the circumstances sending the letter back and simply asking for another one in English seems like perfectly reasonable conduct.


My apologies. I overlooked that the OP had completed and returned the form. What was put in the "comments" box may explain the two year probation and non-payment penalty.

Whether a foreign country should send documents in English as opposed to the recipient having to translate them is, perhaps, debatable? After all, when visiting other countries one accepts that the language may not be English. What language would be used had the OP been stopped by a police officer at the time and issued with a penalty notice? Should it come to a court appearance then the right to an interpreter is another matter.

Edit: This link explains how the system works. Swiss speeding penalties - Tagesätze = one day's pay

This post has been edited by baroudeur: Fri, 5 Jan 2018 - 11:39
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cp8759
post Fri, 5 Jan 2018 - 10:15
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QUOTE (baroudeur @ Fri, 5 Jan 2018 - 10:00) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 17:56) *
The OP has stated that duly filled in the form sent with the first letter and sent it back. Logically the second letter should give the option to pay or challenge / appeal / plead not guilty / whatever in order for the matter be heard by a fair and impartial tribunal established by law (with the right to challenge evidence and witnesses etc...), but no such options appears to exist. The options seem to be either pay a big fine on time, or don't and then you'll pay an even bigger fine for late payment.

Under the circumstances sending the letter back and simply asking for another one in English seems like perfectly reasonable conduct.


My apologies. I overlooked that the OP had completed and returned the form. What was put in the "comments" box may explain the two year probation and non-payment penalty.

Whether a foreign country should send documents in English as opposed to the recipient having to translate them is, perhaps, debatable? After all, when visiting other countries one accepts that the language may not be English. What language would be used had the OP been stopped by a police officer at the time and issued with a penalty notice? Should it come to a court appearance then the right to an interpreter is another matter

Maybe so (I doubt it, but it is arguable). But this doesn't change the fact that there doesn't appear to be any method to challenge the fine before a fair and impartial tribunal established by law.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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mazzer
post Fri, 5 Jan 2018 - 11:14
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QUOTE (Irksome @ Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 23:19) *
QUOTE (mazzer @ Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 17:39) *
QUOTE (Irksome @ Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 15:00) *
It does appear that there are some reports of Letters Rogatory being issued by the Swiss courts for minor speeding infractions ... I'm surprised they find it worth the hassle!


Where are these reports?


http://bfy.tw/Fsda


A 5 year-old report of a few Indian bikers supposedly being chased for fines is not going to convince me to pay up. biggrin.gif
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sg2015
post Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 16:40
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QUOTE (baroudeur @ Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 17:25) *
QUOTE (sg2015 @ Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 12:04) *
Here is the next letter...



That appears to refer to a two year probationary period for the CHF6000 and a CHF1500 penalty for non-payment within 30 days.

So, the 6000 fine is suspended, a penalty of 1500 imposed for non-payment within 30 days and 1200 added in fees.

If that is correct the CHF6000 could be collected if you offend again within the two year period if you have paid the 2700 - or 8700 if you haven't.

Perhaps Switzerland is off the itinerary in future?

Are you saying the fine is because I didn't pay anything on time? Seems a bit unreasonable, as the letter they originally sent is dated October, some 3 months after the speeding. I returned the forms from the original letter swiftly.

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 18:56) *
QUOTE (baroudeur @ Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 17:29) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 16:35) *
QUOTE (sg2015 @ Thu, 4 Jan 2018 - 12:04) *
Here is the next letter...


From a rough Google translation it appears that you have been "convicted" of speeding, there is no mention of any right to appeal, no mention of any evidence, basically you've been found guilty by decree (Assuming there is nothing relevant on the back of the letter, which I'm guessing you haven't posted because it's blank). In my view this is a blatant violation of Article 6. I would just return it with a polite note stating you have no idea what it says, put the ball back in their court.


It could be suggested that any 'rights' under Art 6 were forfeit when the original correspondence was ignored and, as it was multi-language including English, there is no excuse for not understanding what was involved.

The OP has stated that duly filled in the form sent with the first letter and sent it back. Logically the second letter should give the option to pay or challenge / appeal / plead not guilty / whatever in order for the matter be heard by a fair and impartial tribunal established by law (with the right to challenge evidence and witnesses etc...), but no such options appears to exist. The options seem to be either pay a big fine on time, or don't and then you'll pay an even bigger fine for late payment.

Under the circumstances sending the letter back and simply asking for another one in English seems like perfectly reasonable conduct.

I am not going to second guess what google translates it to, and end up with potentially more fine. I think I will request a English copy of the letter. The original came in English, so I understood and filled in. I just dug the letter out again, and there are terms on the back. Sorry for not providing the full picture!

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cp8759
post Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 17:03
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QUOTE (sg2015 @ Sun, 7 Jan 2018 - 16:40) *
I am not going to second guess what google translates it to, and end up with potentially more fine. I think I will request a English copy of the letter. The original came in English, so I understood and filled in. I just dug the letter out again, and there are terms on the back. Sorry for not providing the full picture!


So Google Translate suggests there is some sort of appeal system, but I cannot comment further (especially in terms of whether it is advisable to appeal, whether the appeal system complies with Article 6 and so on) without a reliable translation. Upload the English version once you have it and we'll take it from there.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Churchmouse
post Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 00:17
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I think it says you had to request a hearing within 10 days from the date of the letter, by signing at the bottom and returning the letter to them...

I suppose they either cannot be arsed to comply with Article 6, or they have taken a view that Article 6 does not require them to provide information about the appeals system in a language you can understand (a superficially very odd conclusion, but there may be precedent for it). As it appears you've missed the "appeal" deadline, there's not much to do but wait and see what they say to your request for the information in English.

--Churchmouse
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baroudeur
post Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 13:12
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The OP's recorded speed is considered a very serious offence and, presumably, recorded with approved equipment so, unless any challenge is successful, it appears the €6000 penalty remains in play.

The actual penalty has been suspended so it seems wise to pay the amount due.

Edited to clarify: The penalty for the recorded speed is 120 day's earnings @ CHF50 = CHF6000

This post has been edited by baroudeur: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 13:20
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sg2015
post Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 13:33
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I have spoken with them on the phone and requested an letter in English. Which I shall receive in a week.

I was told at that point I can contest it, or request monthly payments.

the CHF6000 is if I am caught speeding again, the CHF2700 is the fine for this instance, and no late fees or anything on that. (as someone has already said)

This post has been edited by sg2015: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 - 13:34
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