PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Newham council conspiracy
cp8759
post Mon, 4 Jul 2022 - 17:10
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



This is a genuine question.

We are often advised / reminded that we can't advise anyone to break the law, and one of the reasons cited is that if someone were to accept that advice, we (and they) would have entered into a criminal conspiracy.

Newham council are giving advice here: https://www.newham.gov.uk/news/article/870/...-for-e-scooters

Following the same logic, if I accept the council's advice and break the law accordingly, why have the council and I not entered into a criminal conspiracy?

Does it make a difference if I phone the council for advice and the person on the phone gives me the same advice as is published on the website?


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 16)
Advertisement
post Mon, 4 Jul 2022 - 17:10
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
666
post Mon, 4 Jul 2022 - 17:23
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,300
Joined: 17 Jun 2011
Member No.: 47,602



For comparison, "Rape has become very popular and is now widely committed despite the law, so if you do rape someone we want you to do so safely. The advice is - use a condom for your own protection"
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
nigelbb
post Tue, 5 Jul 2022 - 07:43
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,768
Joined: 17 Mar 2013
Member No.: 60,602



QUOTE (666 @ Mon, 4 Jul 2022 - 18:23) *
For comparison, "Rape has become very popular and is now widely committed despite the law, so if you do rape someone we want you to do so safely. The advice is - use a condom for your own protection"


A fairer comparison would be encouraging minimisation of harm for IV drug users with needle exchanges etc


--------------------
British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Tue, 5 Jul 2022 - 08:33
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 56,198
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 4 Jul 2022 - 18:10) *
Following the same logic, if I accept the council's advice and break the law accordingly, why have the council and I not entered into a criminal conspiracy?

As I suspect you know, there is a fine line between aiding and abetting someone to break the law and providing 'adjacent' information. I also suspect it would fail the public interest test.

Though must admit the idea of suggesting a completely illegal rider would 'Don’t use a modified scooter' or 'Make sure your scooter has a speed-restrictor' is amusing.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Tue, 5 Jul 2022 - 10:22
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (nigelbb @ Tue, 5 Jul 2022 - 08:43) *
QUOTE (666 @ Mon, 4 Jul 2022 - 18:23) *
For comparison, "Rape has become very popular and is now widely committed despite the law, so if you do rape someone we want you to do so safely. The advice is - use a condom for your own protection"


A fairer comparison would be encouraging minimisation of harm for IV drug users with needle exchanges etc

I'm not so sure. Leaving aside wider societal problems, someone injecting IV drugs is only affecting themselves, I'd rather there wasn't a heroin addict in a car park stairwell but it's not really going to have a direct impact upon me. Someone riding an illegal scooter on the other hand might crash into and damage my car (bodywork is expensive), or even worse cause serious injury or death (think little old lady pushed over and cracking her skull open).


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
southpaw82
post Tue, 5 Jul 2022 - 12:38
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 33,610
Joined: 2 Apr 2008
From: Not in the UK
Member No.: 18,483



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 4 Jul 2022 - 18:10) *
We are often advised / reminded that we can't advise anyone to break the law, and one of the reasons cited is that if someone were to accept that advice, we (and they) would have entered into a criminal conspiracy.

You cannot advise someone to break the law because that is an incitement. If they accepted your advice it could amount to a conspiracy, depending on the facts. In any case, advising people to break the law brings the site into disrepute.


--------------------
Moderator

Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Tue, 5 Jul 2022 - 13:10
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 5 Jul 2022 - 13:38) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 4 Jul 2022 - 18:10) *
We are often advised / reminded that we can't advise anyone to break the law, and one of the reasons cited is that if someone were to accept that advice, we (and they) would have entered into a criminal conspiracy.

You cannot advise someone to break the law because that is an incitement. If they accepted your advice it could amount to a conspiracy, depending on the facts. In any case, advising people to break the law brings the site into disrepute.

I'm not questioning the site rules at all, it's Newham's website that I am questioning.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
southpaw82
post Tue, 5 Jul 2022 - 15:22
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 33,610
Joined: 2 Apr 2008
From: Not in the UK
Member No.: 18,483



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 5 Jul 2022 - 14:10) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 5 Jul 2022 - 13:38) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 4 Jul 2022 - 18:10) *
We are often advised / reminded that we can't advise anyone to break the law, and one of the reasons cited is that if someone were to accept that advice, we (and they) would have entered into a criminal conspiracy.

You cannot advise someone to break the law because that is an incitement. If they accepted your advice it could amount to a conspiracy, depending on the facts. In any case, advising people to break the law brings the site into disrepute.

I'm not questioning the site rules at all, it's Newham's website that I am questioning.

I get that, I’m just expanding upon the reasons for the rule.


--------------------
Moderator

Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Tue, 5 Jul 2022 - 16:07
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 5 Jul 2022 - 16:22) *
I get that, I’m just expanding upon the reasons for the rule.

So in your view if someone calls the council for advice, and is given the advice stated on the website, and proceeds to break the law based on that advice, could that amount to conspiracy or incitement on the part of the council?


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Tue, 5 Jul 2022 - 16:23
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 5 Jul 2022 - 17:07) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 5 Jul 2022 - 16:22) *
I get that, I’m just expanding upon the reasons for the rule.

So in your view if someone calls the council for advice, and is given the advice stated on the website, and proceeds to break the law based on that advice, could that amount to conspiracy or incitement on the part of the council?


My view is that as long as the council or representative makes it clear that riding an unlicenced E Scooter on the public highway is illegal, anything else they say re safety measures is okay...legally.
But I would prefer if they just said "It's Illegal" in big bold text.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Tue, 5 Jul 2022 - 16:43
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 5 Jul 2022 - 17:23) *
My view is that as long as the council or representative makes it clear that riding an unlicenced E Scooter on the public highway is illegal, anything else they say re safety measures is okay...legally.

I suppose by that logic the example in post 2 would also be legal. I'll have to find Newham's feedback & suggestions page.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
andy_foster
post Tue, 5 Jul 2022 - 16:51
Post #12


Member
Group Icon

Group: Life Member
Posts: 24,214
Joined: 9 Sep 2004
From: Reading
Member No.: 1,624



I think that it is "wrong" for the council to effectively condone the illegal riding of e-scooters. I'm struggling to see how the advice can be construed as conspiracy though.

I also think that article should have been proof read properly - there is clearly an "only" missing from the penultimate paragraph.


--------------------
Andy

Some people think that I make them feel stupid. To be fair, they deserve most of the credit.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Tue, 5 Jul 2022 - 17:33
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 5 Jul 2022 - 17:43) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 5 Jul 2022 - 17:23) *
My view is that as long as the council or representative makes it clear that riding an unlicenced E Scooter on the public highway is illegal, anything else they say re safety measures is okay...legally.

I suppose by that logic the example in post 2 would also be legal. I'll have to find Newham's feedback & suggestions page.

That would be open to the interpretation being put on a condom to protect oneself..... which could mean avoidance of STDs or avoiding leaving DNA...the latter going someway towards telling someone how to avoid being identified and way over the line of what would be legally acceptable IMO.

Perhaps a better example would be something I have often seen on DIY forums when someone asks about problems with their boiler.
Often the only answer they get would be that if they are not gas safe registered, find someone who is.
I really cannot fault that, after all, gas explosions are not unknown and can have severe consequences.
And it is illegal to mess with the gas side or any safety devices.
I also could not fault someone who advised that the error code suggests that the condensate trap is blocked and to clear that (for example)

Personally I don't think it is an authorities place to advise how to ride an E Scooter safely on the highway.
But the guidance given applies to private land just as well.
My only gripe is that they do not emphasise the illegal nature of riding on the public highway enough.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Tue, 5 Jul 2022 - 22:32
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 5 Jul 2022 - 18:33) *
Personally I don't think it is an authorities place to advise how to ride an E Scooter safely on the highway.
But the guidance given applies to private land just as well.
My only gripe is that they do not emphasise the illegal nature of riding on the public highway enough.

Very much playing devil's advocate, one could say that the guidance on condoms applies to consensual sex just as well, and the only issue would be the lack of emphasis about the illegality of rape.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Tue, 5 Jul 2022 - 23:16
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 5 Jul 2022 - 23:32) *
........
Very much playing devil's advocate, one could say that the guidance on condoms applies to consensual sex just as well, and the only issue would be the lack of emphasis about the illegality of rape.

The illegality or lack of emphasis is the bit that bothers me most...but they do say it is illegal (scooter ridng that is) on the Newham site.
Just it seems almost a throwaway tag rather then a clear statement.
Condom use for consensual sex was heavily promoted by public health back in the 80's as part of the AIDs awareness campaign BTW.

A lot depends on perception.
Should we remove programs like CSI that could be used as a guide for how to avoid being found out....fingerprints, DNA, CCTV etc etc etc ?
Or any sort of reference to illegal activities, just in case that could be seen as condoning?
Or stick with the simplistic that don't work.... pulling the wires out of the steering column and shorting them together to steal a car for instance, best of luck with that one in a modern car.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Tue, 5 Jul 2022 - 23:46
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 00:16) *
Should we remove programs like CSI that could be used as a guide for how to avoid being found out....fingerprints, DNA, CCTV etc etc etc ?

I don't think you can realistically compare a work of fiction, or even a documentary like real CSI, with advice from a public authority.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 08:52
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 00:46) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 00:16) *
Should we remove programs like CSI that could be used as a guide for how to avoid being found out....fingerprints, DNA, CCTV etc etc etc ?

I don't think you can realistically compare a work of fiction, or even a documentary like real CSI, with advice from a public authority.


I was perhaps thinking too much of the fictional rape advice but end of the day, the authority is giving advice on safety re an illegal activity.
If that is so wrong, then lots of what we see or is published can be construed in similar way.
Then we end up with silly trigger warnings like violence or bad language on everything....because it may upset or offend someone.
?Hang on, we do already.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 - 09:26
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Friday, 29th March 2024 - 05:00
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here